i did a post and pretax split into my account; in theory i can draw on some of it before the official retirement age without penalities..........in theory
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401k-Roth IRA- company doesn't have matching.....????
- Thread starter jpm2953
- Start date
Here's a great article that will give you a goal and measure of how you are doing with saving for retirement.
https://www.retirementliving.com/how-much-should-you-have-saved-for-retirement-based-on-your-age
Age 30: 1x salary.
Age 35: 2x salary.
Age 40: 3x salary.
Age 45: 4x salary.
Age 50: 6x salary.
Age 55: 7x salary.
Age 60: 8x salary.
Age 67: 10x salary.
Article not clear if this is gross or take home. With taxes and 401k contribution I take home 60% of my gross.
I didn't start saving for retirement until 29 so I figured I was behind so the first yr I set my 401k to 8%, for the next five yrs every time I got a raise I bumped the contribution up 2%. It's been at 18% for the last 18yrs.
Current 401k balance: 10x Gross, 16x Take Home, 3yrs until retirement.
Save as much as you can, Save as early as you can, live below your means.
https://www.retirementliving.com/how-much-should-you-have-saved-for-retirement-based-on-your-age
Age 30: 1x salary.
Age 35: 2x salary.
Age 40: 3x salary.
Age 45: 4x salary.
Age 50: 6x salary.
Age 55: 7x salary.
Age 60: 8x salary.
Age 67: 10x salary.
Article not clear if this is gross or take home. With taxes and 401k contribution I take home 60% of my gross.
I didn't start saving for retirement until 29 so I figured I was behind so the first yr I set my 401k to 8%, for the next five yrs every time I got a raise I bumped the contribution up 2%. It's been at 18% for the last 18yrs.
Current 401k balance: 10x Gross, 16x Take Home, 3yrs until retirement.
Save as much as you can, Save as early as you can, live below your means.
As you know, You can pull ROTH money at retirement tax free; whereas, you will pay income taxes on your distributions from a 401K. That is a huge benefit to a ROTH (IRA). That said, you can only invest $5500/yr in a Roth IRA so maximize this option. Any retirement money left over after your $5500 investment in a ROTH, put in your taxable 401k.
I have a Roth IRA. I was curious about the the difference between the 401k and Roth 401k.
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- Feb 7, 2013
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Its $6,000 for 2019 and $7,000 if you are 50 or older.
Can anyone shed some light on what exactly they think I should do. I was asking about how much my company matches to try and max that out like you guys have been saying ,but this is the response I received.
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, but I am out of town for a conference and just now had a chance to respond. This is a standard 401(k) plan, which means there are only employee salary deferral’s and no match. I hope this helps. Please let me know if there’s anything else you need.
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, but I am out of town for a conference and just now had a chance to respond. This is a standard 401(k) plan, which means there are only employee salary deferral’s and no match. I hope this helps. Please let me know if there’s anything else you need.
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2013
- Messages
- 65,889
- Reaction score
- 73,934
No match. Max out a Roth.
This ordering is appropriate for investors in the US.
In the lists below, thinking "first your governmental 457 (if you have one), then your 401k/403b/SIMPLE/etc." wherever "401k" appears is likely correct -
unless your governmental 457 fund options are significantly worse than those in the 401k/403b -
due to penalty-free access to governmental 457 funds at retirement, even if younger than 59 1/2.
Non-governmental 457b plans have deficiencies, including the inability to roll the balance into an IRA.
"Max _____" means "contribute up to the maximum allowed for _____, subject to your ability to pay day-to-day expenses."
Differences of a few tenths of a percent are not important when applicable for only a few years (in other words, these are guidelines not rules).
Current 10-year Treasury note yield is ~2%. See http://quotes.wsj.com/bond/BX/TMUBMUSD10Y.
WHAT
0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction
1. Contribute to your 401k up to any company match
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
3. Max Health Savings Account (HSA) if eligible.
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level
5. Max 401k (if
- 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or
- you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for (and desire) a tIRA deduction, or
- your earn too much for an IRA deduction and prefer traditional to Roth, then
swap #4 and #5)
6. Fund a mega backdoor Roth if applicable.
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
8. Invest in a taxable account and/or fund a 529 with any extra.
WHY
0. Give yourself at least enough buffer to avoid worries about bouncing checks
1. Company match rates are likely the highest percent return you can get on your money
2. When the guaranteed return is this high, take it.
3. HSA funds are totally tax free when used for medical expenses, making the HSA better than either traditional or Roth IRAs for that purpose.
At worst, the HSA behaves much the same as a tIRA after age 65.
4. Rule of thumb: traditional if current federal marginal rate is 22% or higher; Roth if 10% or lower, or if MAGI is too high to deduct a traditional IRA; flip a coin otherwise.
For those willing to expend a little more energy than it takes to flip a coin, consider comparing current marginal tax saving rate vs. predicted marginal withdrawal tax rate.
If current > predicted, use traditional. Otherwise use Roth.
See Credits can make Traditional better than Roth for lower incomes and other posts in that thread about some exceptions to the rule.
See Traditional versus Roth - Bogleheads for even more details and exceptions.
The 'Calculations' tab in the Case Study Spreadsheet (CSS) can show marginal rates for savings or withdrawals*.
Remember to include all income-dependent effects in your marginal tax rate.
The CSS does include most federal and state brackets, credits (Child Tax, Education, ACA, Earned Income, etc.), phase-ins, phase-outs, and IRMAA tiers.
It may not include some state tax details, FAFSA Expected Family Contribution, and other items irrelevant to most but important to some.
5. See #4 for choice of traditional or Roth for 401k. In a 401k there are no income-based limits for deductions or contributions.
6. Applicability depends on the rules for the specific 401k. See Mega Backdoor Roth IRA.
7. Again, take the risk-free return if high enough. Note that embedded in "high enough" is the assumption that your alternative is "all stocks" or a "fund of funds"
(e.g., target retirement date) that provides a blend of stock and bond returns. If you wish to consider separate bond funds, compare the yield on a fund
with a duration similar to the time remaining on the loan, and put your money toward the one with the higher after-tax interest/yield.
8. Because taxable earnings will still help your FI journey. If your own retirement is in good shape, and you choose to provide significant help for children's college costs,
a 529 plan may be appropriate. Similar to "put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others," do consider funding your own retirement before funding 529 plans for children's college costs.
Speaking of things to do first, see Getting started - Bogleheads if this is all new. Working through that post and the links therein is also a good refresher, even if personal finance isn't completely new to you.
The emergency fund is your "no risk" money. You might consider one of these online banks: http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/earning-interest/best-online-savings-accounts275921001, or possibly use a Roth IRA as an emergency fund.
It is up to you whether to consider "saving for a house down payment" as a "day to day expense", vs. lumping the down payment savings in with "taxable investments" at the end.
If you are renting, you may not be throwing away as much on rent as you might think. See http://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/02/23/rent-v-owning-your-home-opportunity-cost-and-running-some-numbers/ for some thoughts.
For those concerned about "locking up" money in retirement accounts until age 59.5, see How to withdraw funds from your IRA and 401k without penalty before age 59.5.
If your 401k options are poor (i.e., high fund fees) you can check http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/to-401k-or-not-to-401k-that-is-the-question-43459/ for some thoughts on "how high is too high?"
The MAGI calculation for Roth IRA purposes is https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590a#en_US_2018_publink1000230985
Then see Retirement Topics IRA Contribution Limits | Internal Revenue Service.
The MAGI calculation for traditional IRA purposes is https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590a#en_US_2018_publink1000230489.
Then see IRA Deduction Limits | Internal Revenue Service
If one can swing the cash flow, getting in and out of an ESPP is ~"free money". But if one has to make a choice between deferring income in a 401k vs. taking the income and using it for an ESPP, it isn't the same. The benefits of employee stock purchase plans (ESPPs) relative to other opportunities is highly dependent on tax rates, because ESPP benefits all occur in taxable accounts.
- For someone paying 12% tax on ordinary income, and 0% on dividends and capital gains, ESPPs can be very favorable, perhaps competing with high interest rate loans in step 2.
- For someone paying 22% tax on ordinary income, and 15% on dividends and capital gains, ESPPs are not as favorable, perhaps coming between steps 6 and 7.
Priorities above apply when income is primarily through W-2 earnings. For those running their own businesses (e.g., rental property owner, small business owner, etc.),
putting money into that business might come somewhere before, in parallel with, or after step 5.
Why it is likely better to invest instead of paying a low interest rate mortgage early, if you have a long time until the mortgage is due:
https://www.thebalance.com/rolling-index-returns-1973-mid-2009-4061795
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/histretSP.html
*Estimating withdrawal tax rates is not an exact science, but here is one approach:
1) Estimate any guaranteed income. E.g., pension you can't defer in return for higher payments when you do start, rentals, etc.
2) Take current traditional balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so. Take 4% of that value as an annual withdrawal.
3) Take current taxable balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so. Take 2% of that value as qualified dividends.
4a) Decide whether SS income should be considered, or whether you will be able to do enough traditional->Roth conversions before taking SS.
4b) Include SS income projections (using today's dollars) if needed from step 4a.
5) Calculate marginal rate on withdrawals from traditional accounts using today's tax law on the numbers from step 1-4.
6) Make your traditional vs. Roth decision for this year's contribution
7) Repeat steps 1-6 every year until retirement
The steps above may look complicated at first, but you don't need great precision. The answer will either be "obvious" or "difficult to choose". If the latter, it likely won't make much difference which you pick anyway.
Note the possibility of self-defeating predictions:
a) predict high taxable retirement income > contribute to Roth > get low taxable retirement income
b) predict low taxable retirement income > contribute to traditional > get high taxable retirement income
Also, if you pick traditional and that ends up being wrong it will be because you have "too much money" - not the worst problem.
If you pick Roth and that ends up being wrong it will be because you have "too little money" - that can be a real problem.
Thus using traditional is a "safer" choice.
In the lists below, thinking "first your governmental 457 (if you have one), then your 401k/403b/SIMPLE/etc." wherever "401k" appears is likely correct -
unless your governmental 457 fund options are significantly worse than those in the 401k/403b -
due to penalty-free access to governmental 457 funds at retirement, even if younger than 59 1/2.
Non-governmental 457b plans have deficiencies, including the inability to roll the balance into an IRA.
"Max _____" means "contribute up to the maximum allowed for _____, subject to your ability to pay day-to-day expenses."
Differences of a few tenths of a percent are not important when applicable for only a few years (in other words, these are guidelines not rules).
Current 10-year Treasury note yield is ~2%. See http://quotes.wsj.com/bond/BX/TMUBMUSD10Y.
WHAT
0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction
1. Contribute to your 401k up to any company match
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
3. Max Health Savings Account (HSA) if eligible.
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level
5. Max 401k (if
- 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or
- you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for (and desire) a tIRA deduction, or
- your earn too much for an IRA deduction and prefer traditional to Roth, then
swap #4 and #5)
6. Fund a mega backdoor Roth if applicable.
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
8. Invest in a taxable account and/or fund a 529 with any extra.
WHY
0. Give yourself at least enough buffer to avoid worries about bouncing checks
1. Company match rates are likely the highest percent return you can get on your money
2. When the guaranteed return is this high, take it.
3. HSA funds are totally tax free when used for medical expenses, making the HSA better than either traditional or Roth IRAs for that purpose.
At worst, the HSA behaves much the same as a tIRA after age 65.
4. Rule of thumb: traditional if current federal marginal rate is 22% or higher; Roth if 10% or lower, or if MAGI is too high to deduct a traditional IRA; flip a coin otherwise.
For those willing to expend a little more energy than it takes to flip a coin, consider comparing current marginal tax saving rate vs. predicted marginal withdrawal tax rate.
If current > predicted, use traditional. Otherwise use Roth.
See Credits can make Traditional better than Roth for lower incomes and other posts in that thread about some exceptions to the rule.
See Traditional versus Roth - Bogleheads for even more details and exceptions.
The 'Calculations' tab in the Case Study Spreadsheet (CSS) can show marginal rates for savings or withdrawals*.
Remember to include all income-dependent effects in your marginal tax rate.
The CSS does include most federal and state brackets, credits (Child Tax, Education, ACA, Earned Income, etc.), phase-ins, phase-outs, and IRMAA tiers.
It may not include some state tax details, FAFSA Expected Family Contribution, and other items irrelevant to most but important to some.
5. See #4 for choice of traditional or Roth for 401k. In a 401k there are no income-based limits for deductions or contributions.
6. Applicability depends on the rules for the specific 401k. See Mega Backdoor Roth IRA.
7. Again, take the risk-free return if high enough. Note that embedded in "high enough" is the assumption that your alternative is "all stocks" or a "fund of funds"
(e.g., target retirement date) that provides a blend of stock and bond returns. If you wish to consider separate bond funds, compare the yield on a fund
with a duration similar to the time remaining on the loan, and put your money toward the one with the higher after-tax interest/yield.
8. Because taxable earnings will still help your FI journey. If your own retirement is in good shape, and you choose to provide significant help for children's college costs,
a 529 plan may be appropriate. Similar to "put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others," do consider funding your own retirement before funding 529 plans for children's college costs.
Speaking of things to do first, see Getting started - Bogleheads if this is all new. Working through that post and the links therein is also a good refresher, even if personal finance isn't completely new to you.
The emergency fund is your "no risk" money. You might consider one of these online banks: http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/earning-interest/best-online-savings-accounts275921001, or possibly use a Roth IRA as an emergency fund.
It is up to you whether to consider "saving for a house down payment" as a "day to day expense", vs. lumping the down payment savings in with "taxable investments" at the end.
If you are renting, you may not be throwing away as much on rent as you might think. See http://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/02/23/rent-v-owning-your-home-opportunity-cost-and-running-some-numbers/ for some thoughts.
For those concerned about "locking up" money in retirement accounts until age 59.5, see How to withdraw funds from your IRA and 401k without penalty before age 59.5.
If your 401k options are poor (i.e., high fund fees) you can check http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/to-401k-or-not-to-401k-that-is-the-question-43459/ for some thoughts on "how high is too high?"
The MAGI calculation for Roth IRA purposes is https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590a#en_US_2018_publink1000230985
Then see Retirement Topics IRA Contribution Limits | Internal Revenue Service.
The MAGI calculation for traditional IRA purposes is https://www.irs.gov/publications/p590a#en_US_2018_publink1000230489.
Then see IRA Deduction Limits | Internal Revenue Service
If one can swing the cash flow, getting in and out of an ESPP is ~"free money". But if one has to make a choice between deferring income in a 401k vs. taking the income and using it for an ESPP, it isn't the same. The benefits of employee stock purchase plans (ESPPs) relative to other opportunities is highly dependent on tax rates, because ESPP benefits all occur in taxable accounts.
- For someone paying 12% tax on ordinary income, and 0% on dividends and capital gains, ESPPs can be very favorable, perhaps competing with high interest rate loans in step 2.
- For someone paying 22% tax on ordinary income, and 15% on dividends and capital gains, ESPPs are not as favorable, perhaps coming between steps 6 and 7.
Priorities above apply when income is primarily through W-2 earnings. For those running their own businesses (e.g., rental property owner, small business owner, etc.),
putting money into that business might come somewhere before, in parallel with, or after step 5.
Why it is likely better to invest instead of paying a low interest rate mortgage early, if you have a long time until the mortgage is due:
https://www.thebalance.com/rolling-index-returns-1973-mid-2009-4061795
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/histretSP.html
*Estimating withdrawal tax rates is not an exact science, but here is one approach:
1) Estimate any guaranteed income. E.g., pension you can't defer in return for higher payments when you do start, rentals, etc.
2) Take current traditional balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so. Take 4% of that value as an annual withdrawal.
3) Take current taxable balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so. Take 2% of that value as qualified dividends.
4a) Decide whether SS income should be considered, or whether you will be able to do enough traditional->Roth conversions before taking SS.
4b) Include SS income projections (using today's dollars) if needed from step 4a.
5) Calculate marginal rate on withdrawals from traditional accounts using today's tax law on the numbers from step 1-4.
6) Make your traditional vs. Roth decision for this year's contribution
7) Repeat steps 1-6 every year until retirement
The steps above may look complicated at first, but you don't need great precision. The answer will either be "obvious" or "difficult to choose". If the latter, it likely won't make much difference which you pick anyway.
Note the possibility of self-defeating predictions:
a) predict high taxable retirement income > contribute to Roth > get low taxable retirement income
b) predict low taxable retirement income > contribute to traditional > get high taxable retirement income
Also, if you pick traditional and that ends up being wrong it will be because you have "too much money" - not the worst problem.
If you pick Roth and that ends up being wrong it will be because you have "too little money" - that can be a real problem.
Thus using traditional is a "safer" choice.
Great info from everyone. Sub'd for later in-depth reading.
Great article, thanks for sharing.
I have followed these exact steps for 23yrs and have been on step 8 for the last 3yrs including doing the Back-Door ROTH. The lesson to be learned is to educate yourself on all the tax shelters and retirement plans available to you by law and start saving as soon as you can. I started at 28 and thought I was behind so I bumped my 401k contribution up a little the first 5 years until it was at 18% and it's been there ever since.
