Bill of sale: yes or no?

[Patronus]

How about simple common sense. When it says "person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State" that means you have to know that the person is a resident of your state. You must be psychic. Me, I have to verify residency so I don't violate the law.
Do try to not confuse the residency REQUIREMENT with the reasonable suspicion portion. That's the same run-on sentence mindset that makes liberals miinterpret the second amendment.

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State,/////// if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law

 

[FredAlert]

When you're a buyer you should be more interested in a Bill of sale .... here's the thing .... I like to think the best of people but we've all dealt with someone who decided they want to trade back and are mad when you won't ...

The bill of sale proves that you've acquired the gun from the person you got it from legally and if the guy you trade or buy from changes his mind and is pissed that you won't trade back he can't lie and say that you stole it.... without the bill of sale it's your word against his and if he's got documentation that he purchased from a dealer or whatever and it's now in your possession his word is the one they'll take.

Also as a seller if you're dealing with someone that doesn't have a GWL if you have someone in the bill of sale that mentions something about the recipient verifies that they are legally allowed to purchase firearms then you have documentation that you did indeed ask if it turns out that they are a criminal and the ATF tries to pinch you for selling to them.

You can say that legally it's not useful but clearly that is a silly position ....

As long as they have a GWL it's a non-issue because the state has already told you that they aren't ineligible but otherwise it doesn't hurt to have some kind of documentation ...

 

[itsme_timd]

The "government" doesn't require it.
I'm not doing it because the government requires it, I'm doing it to cover my ass and show a record of the transaction and transfer of ownership of the firearm.

If you have BoS showing I bought the gun then I guess that makes me guilty of the murder.
Come on guys, that's a ridiculous argument, there's no way anyone could possibly think that you're doing a BoS simply to incriminate someone else in a crime. The BoS is done to show A TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP. In no way is it meant to show someone else is guilty of a crime or even that they are suspect of it. If a firearm that I sell is used in a crime then I can present the BoS to show that I do not own that firearm anymore. The police can then speak to the new owner of that firearm. Honestly my first thought would be that someone stole it from the guy I sold it to. Not sure how many criminals shop for their guns of forums but I imagine most of them get them out of the trunk of a car.

This isn't just to protect the seller. Say you're the buyer and you're firearm is suspected in a crime that was committed a month ago, or that it was stolen and you have a BoS that shows you just bought it 2 weeks ago. It's not going to immediately clear you of the crime if you are a suspect but it does give LE a solid lead to follow up on to clear your name as quickly as possible.

A BoS is not legally binding unless it's notarized.
This is incorrect. If two people sign a document it is a legally binding contract. I own a staffing company and have been doing this for over 10 years, I have contracts with 100+ companies and I've never had to notarize the signatures. The only issue you could run into is if the other guy says that's not his signature, but then you have a lot bigger mess to deal with. If you wanted to say that you don't want to do a BoS because the other guy could simply say he didn't sign it then so be it, but the document is legally binding and if someone denies their signature then the issue would be to decide which party was telling the truth.

People who want a BoS are just paranoid.
When you make a major purchase you generally fill out a bill of sale. The purpose is to show you bought the item and the other person sold it. We've probably all seen court cases where someone bought a car from another party and they were "friends" so they didn't do any sort of contract... or bill of sale... to transfer the ownership. The car breaks down or it's in an accident or used in a crime and there's a dispute as to who owns it and who's responsible. Same thing here, I'm not being paranoid, I'm being responsible.

I'm not giving anyone my address.
Why do you want to collect my personal information.
Oddly enough I've read these same arguments from people saying that the person who wants a BoS is paranoid, how ironic. I've got several BoS on firearms I've sold and to be honest I couldn't tell you the names on any of them, I've got them in a folder if I ever need to reference them but that is it. I understand the desire to protect personal information but wanting documentation of who you sold a firearm to seems reasonable to me.

If someone asks me to do a BoS they can go **** themselves.
I promise you no one is asking for a BoS to be an asshole, I honestly hope no one thinks I, or anyone else, is a jerk simply for that fact they want to do one. I actually had no idea until I started reading these threads that anyone would be opposed to them, I just don't see why it's not a good idea, but that's (obviously) just my opinion.

I'm not doing one to get your personal info, I honestly don't care where you live. I'm not doing it because I think you're a criminal, I'd do a BoS to sell to my best friend. I know the government doesn't require it, that has nothing to do with why I want a BoS. I'm not paranoid, I'm just diligent. If you don't want to do a BoS that is fine, but please don't hate someone else just because they do.

 

[captdave77]

The "government" doesn't require it.
I'm not doing it because the government requires it, I'm doing it to cover my ass and show a record of the transaction and transfer of ownership of the firearm.

If you have BoS showing I bought the gun then I guess that makes me guilty of the murder.
Come on guys, that's a ridiculous argument, there's no way anyone could possibly think that you're doing a BoS simply to incriminate someone else in a crime. The BoS is done to show A TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP. In no way is it meant to show someone else is guilty of a crime or even that they are suspect of it. If a firearm that I sell is used in a crime then I can present the BoS to show that I do not own that firearm anymore. The police can then speak to the new owner of that firearm. Honestly my first thought would be that someone stole it from the guy I sold it to. Not sure how many criminals shop for their guns of forums but I imagine most of them get them out of the trunk of a car.

This isn't just to protect the seller. Say you're the buyer and you're firearm is suspected in a crime that was committed a month ago, or that it was stolen and you have a BoS that shows you just bought it 2 weeks ago. It's not going to immediately clear you of the crime if you are a suspect but it does give LE a solid lead to follow up on to clear your name as quickly as possible.

A BoS is not legally binding unless it's notarized.
This is incorrect. If two people sign a document it is a legally binding contract. I own a staffing company and have been doing this for over 10 years, I have contracts with 100+ companies and I've never had to notarize the signatures. The only issue you could run into is if the other guy says that's not his signature, but then you have a lot bigger mess to deal with. If you wanted to say that you don't want to do a BoS because the other guy could simply say he didn't sign it then so be it, but the document is legally binding and if someone denies their signature then the issue would be to decide which party was telling the truth.

People who want a BoS are just paranoid.
When you make a major purchase you generally fill out a bill of sale. The purpose is to show you bought the item and the other person sold it. We've probably all seen court cases where someone bought a car from another party and they were "friends" so they didn't do any sort of contract... or bill of sale... to transfer the ownership. The car breaks down or it's in an accident or used in a crime and there's a dispute as to who owns it and who's responsible. Same thing here, I'm not being paranoid, I'm being responsible.

I'm not giving anyone my address.
Why do you want to collect my personal information.
Oddly enough I've read these same arguments from people saying that the person who wants a BoS is paranoid, how ironic. I've got several BoS on firearms I've sold and to be honest I couldn't tell you the names on any of them, I've got them in a folder if I ever need to reference them but that is it. I understand the desire to protect personal information but wanting documentation of who you sold a firearm to seems reasonable to me.

If someone asks me to do a BoS they can go **** themselves.
I promise you no one is asking for a BoS to be an asshole, I honestly hope no one thinks I, or anyone else, is a jerk simply for that fact they want to do one. I actually had no idea until I started reading these threads that anyone would be opposed to them, I just don't see why it's not a good idea, but that's (obviously) just my opinion.

I'm not doing one to get your personal info, I honestly don't care where you live. I'm not doing it because I think you're a criminal, I'd do a BoS to sell to my best friend. I know the government doesn't require it, that has nothing to do with why I want a BoS. I'm not paranoid, I'm just diligent. If you don't want to do a BoS that is fine, but please don't hate someone else just because they do.

No, to be honest, you could tell me the names and addresses of those people by opening a folder.

 

[Patronus]

If you have BoS showing I bought the gun then I guess that makes me guilty of the murder.
Come on guys, that's a ridiculous argument

He was joooooking....


A BoS is like a holding a sheet of tinfoil in front of a firing squad.....can you say useless?


Read my lips...er signature line....

 

[itsme_timd]

No, to be honest, you could tell me the names and addresses of those people by opening a folder.

Yes, I could, and that's the point of having them on file.

 

[itsme_timd]

He was joooooking....


A BoS is like a holding a sheet of tinfoil in front of a firing squad.....can you say useless?


Read my lips...er signature line....

Why do you say it is useless?

 

[snake dr]

Yes I guess I am "psychic". If I have no reason to think that the person is a resident of another state or ineligible by federal law to receive the weapon then the deal goes on without me doing the TSA anal search. If the law meant that you had to verify state of residency it would have stated so. It says "reasonable cause to believe otherwise".

If you have a Georgia licence plate on your ride, I'll take a chance and figure that you are from Georgia, better yet if you have a Georgia shipping address I would assume that you are a resident of said address.
Would it be appropriate to go snooping around and follow someone to ensure that they do in fact live at the provided address?

Some of ya'll folks will be good to go when the government gets through stripping your rights away

I guess there are no felons residing in the state of Georgia? If you are going to be anal about the residency you might as well run them in for a background check. I would think the water would be a lot hotter if you sold to a convicted felon verses someone from out of state.

How about simple common sense. When it says "person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State" that means you have to know that the person is a resident of your state. You must be psychic. Me, I have to verify residency so I don't violate the law.
Do try to not confuse the residency REQUIREMENT with the reasonable suspicion portion. That's the same run-on sentence mindset that makes liberals miinterpret the second amendment.

 

[Patronus]

you have only your word that it was me who signed it. You think you are getting my DL #, name address etc? NOT! So if someone has stolen my ID and LEO comes to me...wrong person. I may be screwed or they may get it right and have just wasted time harrassing me. Was it really me? What if I say it wasn't and when I "signed" your BoS I signed left handed or faked it? Your word against mine. Either way, useless paper. Say I DID buy it AND signed a BoS AND admit it...but I say I sold it to someone else. Your BoS is useless.

Your example of business you deal with is weak because they are already business partners and have permanent addresses, histories, files etc. Without a notary (or at least a witness - pretty near worthless legally speaking) to VERIFY my signature, that signature is useless. Again..bos is useless.

In reality a BoS has zero useful, meaningful, legal protection. What it does is gives you information on me that you are not legally entitled to, required to obtain or welcome to by me.

And besides, every post on here is part of the servers history. When I sell a gun that was bought in my name if I'm ever approached by LE, I will simply point out my communication with the buyer along with whatever info I remember. I have complied with the law and aided the investigation.

Also, a BoS showing that I sold a gun will never trump motive and opportunity. Nor will the absence of a BoS ever beat a solid alibi and lack of any apparent motive. If I sell a gun to some guy in Kennesaw and it is used in a murder today, it being in my name will in no way trump the fact that I am waaaaay down here all day and couldn't possibly have committed the crime. BoS=meaningless again.

 

[Patronus]

Yes I guess I am "psychic". If I have no reason to think that the person is a resident of another state or ineligible by federal law to receive the weapon then the deal goes on without me doing the TSA anal search. If the law meant that you had to verify state of residency it would have stated so. It says "reasonable cause to believe otherwise".

If you have a Georgia licence plate on your ride, I'll take a chance and figure that you are from Georgia, better yet if you have a Georgia shipping address I would assume that you are a resident of said address.
Would it be appropriate to go snooping around and follow someone to ensure that they do in fact live at the provided address?

Some of ya'll folks will be good to go when the government gets through stripping your rights away

I guess there are no felons residing in the state of Georgia? If you are going to be anal about the residency you might as well run them in for a background check. I would think the water would be a lot hotter if you sold to a convicted felon verses someone from out of state.

LOL! Be sure to write a post explaining how you THOUGHT that guy was a GA resident on your way to jail. Clearly reading isn't your strong point. One last time for the cheap seats..."A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State," This part deals SOLELY with residency and REQUIRES that the buyer be a resident. Get your crayon out and trace that part.

Now on a separate page copy this part "if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Two separate thoughts...I know...really hard ain't it?

So, if Michael Bloomberg sends someone here to buy a gun, they use a rented or borrowed car and tell you they are a GA resident. You are going to jail.


if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.

Funny thing is I bet you support requiring an ID to vote. I know I support it. But I also understand that a simple peek at a Georgia Drivers license can prevent a trip to jail and loss of the right to keep and bear. But I guess looking at that little card is too "anal" for ya. ALso, maybe you missed the thread recently about the guy with dual residency with GA and FLA who couldn't get a GA DL without surrendering his FLA DL and so couldn't buy guns in GA legally(handguns). Laws may be funky but they are still laws.