Dilemma .270 135gr Cast Inconsistent Data Available

[Petro_58]

I've had success with my Cast handgun loads and figured I'd try some things for a Browning BAR in .270. Wow the Manuals I have the Load Data Suck, and are inconsistent. Very few with OAL's and powder charge inconsistencies. Ok I'd appreciate anything you all could share to give me an Idea based on your experiences with the .270, and the Components I have. Any Ideas which way you'd start? Or a different Powder and Start. Not Looking for your specific, unless you just want to share. But Powders that maybe you tried that didn't perform as well as expected. Or what powder worked better. Maybe I need better books for my Rifle Loads? Or not even Try Loading Cast for this Semi Auto .270. Maybe go to a Heavier Boolit.

Thanks In Advance

Browning BAR Mark I .270 caliber
Universal neck expander
Brass Win, Fed, Frontier Rem. All brass has been FL sized, also have a Neck Sizer
Primers Win Large Rifle and CCI 200 Large Rifle.
My Boolits should be Lyman#2 hardness (or Close)
Lee Mold # C277-135rf, average wt 136.2gr, Powder Coated, Gas Checked, sized at .278
My OAL. Inserting dummy cartridges into the chamber, appear to hit the lands at a Length of 3.22 so I'm figuring 3.12 or there about.
Powders Listed are Powders I have on hand.
Varget
4064
4198
4227
4350
3031
2400
Herco
Unique

Lyman's Cast Manual #3 *** the most useful so Far
mold #280412- 136gr
OAL 3.095
Unique Start 11.5 Max 14.8
Herco 12.0 15.0
IMR 3031 29.2 40.0

Lyman #47 Nadda

Lyman #48 Nadda

Lyman #44
Mold #280412- 136gr
No OAL
Unique Start 8.0 Max 12 **Big Difference?** Compared to above listed Lyman#3
No Herco Listed
No IMR3031 Listed
2400 15.0 23.0
IMR4227 15.0 25.0
IMR4198 20.0 28.0

 

[noylj]

Manuals do not use the same gun, same lot of powder, same bullets (certainly NOT the same lot of bullets), same cases, same primers, or same COL. Do any of them even use the same mold number bullet as you have? If your expectations were true, there would be ONE reloading manual.
Thus, they report what they found and offer a starting load that is usually just a 10-12% drop from the MAX load.
I start at the lowest starting load. I also find that the most accurate load uses a COL where the bullet is generally close to or actually touching the lede/rifling. This has been very true for all the cast bullets I have tried and is taken care of by starting at the starting load (or, as I prefer, the lowest starting load I can find).
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load."
Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

 

[Petro_58]

Manuals do not use the same gun, same lot of powder, same bullets (certainly NOT the same lot of bullets), same cases, same primers, or same COL. Do any of them even use the same mold number bullet as you have? If your expectations were true, there would be ONE reloading manual.
Thus, they report what they found and offer a starting load that is usually just a 10-12% drop from the MAX load.
I start at the lowest starting load. I also find that the most accurate load uses a COL where the bullet is generally close to or actually touching the lede/rifling. This has been very true for all the cast bullets I have tried and is taken care of by starting at the starting load (or, as I prefer, the lowest starting load I can find).
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load."
Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

Been Reloading off and on for 40+ years, yes I am aware of the RULES and most of the in's and out's. Though I still learn new things, which I am trying to attempt with this project. No I'm Not the GURU or EXPERT, but I certainly don't need the "NOOB to Reloading" Act Read to me either. And if you had Read what I was asking and what I am doing you'll find a Picture with 1 of the 5 Dummy Loads created and also the established OAL I intend to start with, maybe to be adjusted at a later point. Cast Bullets can be a little more challenging, especially for SEMI AUTO RIFLES. Yes I am aware that DIFFERENT MANUALS have different information, and some YES even have PRINTED MISTAKES. Out of all the manuals I have (and YES I have SEVERAL(9)), there is very little information on what it is I'm trying to load. There is also very little I have found through hours and days of reading articles, asking questions of others online, etc.. Besides Manuals I have the Quickload Program, but there again it is ONLY a Computer Generated Model and not REAL WORLD Information tried and true. So I was asking if anyone here has any BETTER information, based on their Experiences loading Cast Bullets for a .270 Semi Auto Rifle, or if they have tried what I'm doing, and if so had any success or failure. If this was however a Bolt Rifle, or Jacketed Bullets then EASY, PEASY. But then if everything in the world was easy, what a boring place it would be. I have little expectation of Victory.

Thanks for your input.

Now for what I'm going to test. I built 2 Ladder Loads using Unique Powder and IMR3031 being as they were listed in Couple Sources. One Concern was the DIFFERENCE in printed UNIQUE loads and researched Min and Max charges. So I'm playing middle of the road right now just hoping for rounds that will Cycle the Bolt. Once and IF I can get anything to cycle, at that point I can load more adjust powder + or - and see if I can get any accuracy. Being told by several, chances of Cycling the Bolt are gonna be slim for this Rifle. But then Nobody I've heard from so far has attempted what I'm trying. So I'll all get a little real world schooling, and point of Fact this is kind of what reloading is all about Load Development.
Back to the Bench, have to finish my 3031 Ladder, and if I have time I may try building a 3rd Ladder with 4198 or 2400. Cycling the Bolt and Pressure signs are all I'm looking for with tomorrow's Range Trip.

 

[97 winchester]

I have no specific experience with this load but I looked in my old#45 Lyman et al . Not much help but it agrees with your Lyman cast manual for Unique and Herco. If I find anything else I'll post.

 

[noylj]

I'm sorry, but your original post sounded like you didn't understand why manuals don't match.
Sorry I tried to help you.
I trust your middle of the road will still START with START load and NOT just jump into a load midway between start and max from just one manual.
If you understood and were insulted by my post, then you fully understand what my worries are.

 

[Petro_58]

Maybe we just both misunderstood. Either way chances are it's all for not anyway. But I'll experiment within my set of Safe Loading parameters and see what happens. I don't think I'll get the Bolt to cycle within reason with the powders I have available. Good thing is, there is a Gun Show this weekend in Jacksonville so New Powders are probably going to be in Play. This may turn out to be a bust but at least I'll have some fun with it.

 

[1006]

I don't think the BAR is a good choice for cast lead loads. The bullets will likely fly apart at the powder levels required to cycle the bolt.


You could plan to cycle it manually. I would try 30 grains of 3031 with a filler. Maybe there will be enough gas to run the bolt, and maybe the bullet will be accurate out to 50yards.

You might look over at the cast bullets web forum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

 

[Petro_58]

Forgot to mention, had great time at the Range however as expected my Loads Failed to Cycle the Bolt. Unique didn't even attempt to open the bolt, 3031 and the 4198 came the closest, opening the bolt about 3/4 of the way. I picked up some H4895 and I have some IMR4350 I'll build some ladders with those and see how they perform. Looks like slower powders may be the thing. So still testing.

 

[biker_bill]

I missed this thread when you started it.
I have a BAR in .270, reload and cast, but have never tried what you're trying.
Stay in touch please, you have me interested and I hope everything works out at the Doc's.

 

[Petro_58]

I don't think the BAR is a good choice for cast lead loads. The bullets will likely fly apart at the powder levels required to cycle the bolt.


You could plan to cycle it manually. I would try 30 grains of 3031 with a filler. Maybe there will be enough gas to run the bolt, and maybe the bullet will be accurate out to 50yards.

You might look over at the cast bullets web forum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

Appreciate all the Input guys, yeah I'm on Castboolits also and got a Post going there. The consensus there is go to slower powders. Having some Health scare issues right now, and haven't dedicated more time to this yet. Changed directions for the moment and went to Jacket Bullets and hope I'll get back to testing with Cast again soon though. Dr's appt Thursday. Again Thanks to all.