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ReservoirDawg10

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Just gonna put this here....

Taken from somewhere else.

Pump action shotguns are less reliable for self defense than semi-auto shotguns.

That is the truth, and it is a hard pill to swallow for many people. It is time for that old fuddlore myth to die.

And no, you aren't any better. You are a fallible human who most likely is not nearly as skilled with a pump shotgun as you think you are. If even Rob Haught foibles a pump sometimes, then you can as well, and you have a decent chance of doing so when under stress.

No matter how good you are with a pump shotgun, when you introduce stress, time constraints, and a human attacker, a pump shotgun will be less reliable than a half-decent semi-auto shotgun.

Even the mild stress of a shot timer can cause otherwise good shooters to start inducing malfunctions in their pump shotguns.

This problem impacts all manually actuated firearms.

Single action revolvers
Bolt action rifles
Pump action shotguns
Lever action rifles

All of these are inferior to and less reliable than semi-autos with regards to self defense use.
The highest quality bolt action rifle on the planet, even in the hands of a skilled user, will be less reliable for self defense than the average Anderson AR when under stress.
The highest quality pump action shotgun, even in the hands of a true expert, will be less reliable for self defense than a humble Mossberg 930 or Remington 1100, much less a Beretta 1301 or Benelli M4.

Rob Haught occasionally foibles a pump.
Matt Haught sometimes does.
There's video of James Yeager doing so.
There's video of Travis Haley doing so.
Even Rhett Neumayer says that a pump is less reliable than a semi-auto.

Anybody who says they NEVER short stroke or induce a malfunction with their pump shotgun simply doesn't shoot enough and doesn't shoot under even mild stress.

"B-but Sling Guy, I ran 200 shells through my pump shotgun with no malfunctions!"

1) 200 is a low round count. That's barely a proof of concept.
2) I never said that all pump shotguns were mechanically unreliable, as if they were faulty machines, just that they are unreliable in practical terms when you are under stress.
3) 200 shells with no malfunctions at a calm range under ideal conditions doesn't mean that you have the skill as a user to still 100% reliably rack that pump perfectly every time when your life is on the line, in a context where 99% reliable isn't good enough.

The reality is that you are a faulty user. Sure, Lexus could make a machine that flawlessly actuates your pump shotgun and it'll go 750 shells between malfunctions. But when you are the user, you might be able to use it just fine at the range but it is unacceptably likely that you will experience a malfunction in a defensive shooting with that pump shotgun, a malfunction that wouldn't have occurred with a semi-auto shotgun.

A semi-auto shotgun is the most prudent and logical choice for a defensive shotgun.
Instead of you having to actuate the mechanisms inside the gun manually between shots, a semi-auto shotgun does that for you, and it does it FAR more reliably than your human hands could.

A semi-auto cycles reliably regardless of how much adrenaline is flowing through your body, regardless of how much traction you have on the gun, and regardless of how much training you have. Like a Lexus, it works reliably and it doesn't care if you suck or not.
In exchange for filling all those glaring holes in the sieve you called your reliable home defense shotgun, you only have to deal with gear-determined reliability considerations when you are in the buying phase.

What does that mean?
Well, instead of getting a subpar gun that can feed whatever subpar ammo you feed it but only if you are perfect in faultlessly actuating it every time, you can solve a bunch of reliability problems by instead getting a more expensive semi-auto shotgun and getting more expensive quality buckshot for self defense.

Sure, that semi-auto won't cycle minishells, but that should be a non-concern, like worrying if your Glock will cycle CCI snakeshot shot shells.

Semi-autos give you a gear solution to a human problem, a problem that is such a fundamentally unsolvable problem that even the top shotgun instructors in the country still sometimes struggle with it. So no, in practice, it isn't a training issue.

To disregard this very real issue by asserting that you are a perfect user and would never induce a malfunction when racking the pump under the duress of defending your life is insane and myopic.
If you believe that you are more reliable at racking your pump under stress than a Beretta or Benelli shotgun would be, then you're probably also the sort who thinks that you'd be a better kicker than the pros, because you would never miss a field goal kick.

Choosing a pump shotgun because you think they're more reliable than a semi-auto is like choosing to do calculus by hand on paper instead of using a calculator because you think calculators are unreliable.
Now yes, a Texas Instruments calculator that will do integration by parts will be more expensive than a cheapo dollar store calculator that only does basic elementary school math, and both are more expensive than simply using paper and a pencil. Think of this as the difference between buying a Beretta/Benelli vs buying a turkish shotgun.
And yes, doing calculus by hand beats not being able to do calculus at all with the cheapo calculator. That's the equivalent of choosing between a Remington 870 and a turkish bullpup abomination that cracks the receiver after the 6th shot.
But when you have the option to bump up to a nice calculator, you'd be foolish to think that your by-hand calculations on paper are more reliable than that TI-89.

"bUt mY pUmP cAn rUn miNishELLs aNd bEaNbaGs!"

That's the equivalent of arguing that hand calculations on paper are better than using a calculator because you can use gel pens to draw doodles on paper like a middle school girl.

Anyway, semi-auto shotguns offer many advantages over manually-actuated shotguns:
1) Significantly reduced recoil because of the recoil mechanism soaking up the energy and lengthening the recoil impulse.
2) Faster cycle time means potentially faster shots on target.
3) Reduced recoil means it is FAR easier to more quickly get shots on target.
4) Reduced recoil means you are less likely to flinch and miss the shot.
5) Faster target transitions, so if there are multiple threats, you will likely be far faster to hit multiple threats before they shoot at you.
6) Sometimes increased capacity if the shotgun can be ghost loaded.
7) The ability to be used one-handed if necessary. We practice shooting one-handed with handguns because we recognize that we won't always have both hands free. Being a long gun doesn't magically change this, but we ignore this reality with long guns because it leads to an uncomfortable realization that the most popular long guns might suck when used with one hand. At any rate, it would benefit you to choose a gun that can still be proficiently used one-handed, and that means going semi-auto. Pump shotguns become cripplingly slow and cumbersome to use one-handed. If you want to go the extra mile with regards to having a gun that is supremely easy to use one-handed, the IWI TS12 is the only worthwhile semi-auto bullpup shotgun on the market (post linked here: https://bit.ly/3Nk14f7).
8 ) More reliable, which is the entire focus of this post.

A semi-auto shotgun is objectively superior to a pump action shotgun.
If you have the funds to upgrade, you should do so.
For a traditional-styled semi-auto shotgun, a Beretta 1301 would be my recommendation, and they're surprisingly affordable, at only eleven to fourteen franklins. For a budget option, a Mossberg 930 can be had for six to eight franklins. If you can't afford that, then skip shotguns until you can afford a worthwhile one. Below that price point, just do what you probably should have already done and get an AR instead (and for a nuanced explanation of the reasons to choose between rifles and shotguns, head to this post: https://bit.ly/3xtU0XM). Skip all the turkish semi-auto shotguns.

For a bullpup, the IWI TS-12 is the only one worth bothering with. Do not make the mistake of letting your eyes gaze upon one of the turkish bullpup abominations, for like a beholder, they will corrupt your sanity, charm you with their turk magic, drain your intelligence, and drag you into the abyss where you will repeat "just az guud" for all of eternity.
 

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yardboss1

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For a traditional-styled semi-auto shotgun, a Beretta 1301 would be my recommendation, and they're surprisingly affordable, at only eleven to fourteen franklins. For a budget option, a Mossberg 930 can be had for six to eight franklins.
:confused:.............Gun snobs never rest.
 

Hall_308-45-12GA_forever

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Very intelligently presented.
A sign of a civilized argument.
Another sign, would be to accept that many who have pump/lever action shotguns, are better off than nothing when accosted with the rabble.
The don't be poor argument is an insult, at best; a self immolating reveal at worst.
 

Bear44

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Just gonna put this here....

Taken from somewhere else.

Pump action shotguns are less reliable for self defense than semi-auto shotguns.

That is the truth, and it is a hard pill to swallow for many people. It is time for that old fuddlore myth to die.

And no, you aren't any better. You are a fallible human who most likely is not nearly as skilled with a pump shotgun as you think you are. If even Rob Haught foibles a pump sometimes, then you can as well, and you have a decent chance of doing so when under stress.

No matter how good you are with a pump shotgun, when you introduce stress, time constraints, and a human attacker, a pump shotgun will be less reliable than a half-decent semi-auto shotgun.

Even the mild stress of a shot timer can cause otherwise good shooters to start inducing malfunctions in their pump shotguns.

This problem impacts all manually actuated firearms.

Single action revolvers
Bolt action rifles
Pump action shotguns
Lever action rifles

All of these are inferior to and less reliable than semi-autos with regards to self defense use.
The highest quality bolt action rifle on the planet, even in the hands of a skilled user, will be less reliable for self defense than the average Anderson AR when under stress.
The highest quality pump action shotgun, even in the hands of a true expert, will be less reliable for self defense than a humble Mossberg 930 or Remington 1100, much less a Beretta 1301 or Benelli M4.

Rob Haught occasionally foibles a pump.
Matt Haught sometimes does.
There's video of James Yeager doing so.
There's video of Travis Haley doing so.
Even Rhett Neumayer says that a pump is less reliable than a semi-auto.

Anybody who says they NEVER short stroke or induce a malfunction with their pump shotgun simply doesn't shoot enough and doesn't shoot under even mild stress.

"B-but Sling Guy, I ran 200 shells through my pump shotgun with no malfunctions!"

1) 200 is a low round count. That's barely a proof of concept.
2) I never said that all pump shotguns were mechanically unreliable, as if they were faulty machines, just that they are unreliable in practical terms when you are under stress.
3) 200 shells with no malfunctions at a calm range under ideal conditions doesn't mean that you have the skill as a user to still 100% reliably rack that pump perfectly every time when your life is on the line, in a context where 99% reliable isn't good enough.

The reality is that you are a faulty user. Sure, Lexus could make a machine that flawlessly actuates your pump shotgun and it'll go 750 shells between malfunctions. But when you are the user, you might be able to use it just fine at the range but it is unacceptably likely that you will experience a malfunction in a defensive shooting with that pump shotgun, a malfunction that wouldn't have occurred with a semi-auto shotgun.

A semi-auto shotgun is the most prudent and logical choice for a defensive shotgun.
Instead of you having to actuate the mechanisms inside the gun manually between shots, a semi-auto shotgun does that for you, and it does it FAR more reliably than your human hands could.

A semi-auto cycles reliably regardless of how much adrenaline is flowing through your body, regardless of how much traction you have on the gun, and regardless of how much training you have. Like a Lexus, it works reliably and it doesn't care if you suck or not.
In exchange for filling all those glaring holes in the sieve you called your reliable home defense shotgun, you only have to deal with gear-determined reliability considerations when you are in the buying phase.

What does that mean?
Well, instead of getting a subpar gun that can feed whatever subpar ammo you feed it but only if you are perfect in faultlessly actuating it every time, you can solve a bunch of reliability problems by instead getting a more expensive semi-auto shotgun and getting more expensive quality buckshot for self defense.

Sure, that semi-auto won't cycle minishells, but that should be a non-concern, like worrying if your Glock will cycle CCI snakeshot shot shells.

Semi-autos give you a gear solution to a human problem, a problem that is such a fundamentally unsolvable problem that even the top shotgun instructors in the country still sometimes struggle with it. So no, in practice, it isn't a training issue.

To disregard this very real issue by asserting that you are a perfect user and would never induce a malfunction when racking the pump under the duress of defending your life is insane and myopic.
If you believe that you are more reliable at racking your pump under stress than a Beretta or Benelli shotgun would be, then you're probably also the sort who thinks that you'd be a better kicker than the pros, because you would never miss a field goal kick.

Choosing a pump shotgun because you think they're more reliable than a semi-auto is like choosing to do calculus by hand on paper instead of using a calculator because you think calculators are unreliable.
Now yes, a Texas Instruments calculator that will do integration by parts will be more expensive than a cheapo dollar store calculator that only does basic elementary school math, and both are more expensive than simply using paper and a pencil. Think of this as the difference between buying a Beretta/Benelli vs buying a turkish shotgun.
And yes, doing calculus by hand beats not being able to do calculus at all with the cheapo calculator. That's the equivalent of choosing between a Remington 870 and a turkish bullpup abomination that cracks the receiver after the 6th shot.
But when you have the option to bump up to a nice calculator, you'd be foolish to think that your by-hand calculations on paper are more reliable than that TI-89.

"bUt mY pUmP cAn rUn miNishELLs aNd bEaNbaGs!"

That's the equivalent of arguing that hand calculations on paper are better than using a calculator because you can use gel pens to draw doodles on paper like a middle school girl.

Anyway, semi-auto shotguns offer many advantages over manually-actuated shotguns:
1) Significantly reduced recoil because of the recoil mechanism soaking up the energy and lengthening the recoil impulse.
2) Faster cycle time means potentially faster shots on target.
3) Reduced recoil means it is FAR easier to more quickly get shots on target.
4) Reduced recoil means you are less likely to flinch and miss the shot.
5) Faster target transitions, so if there are multiple threats, you will likely be far faster to hit multiple threats before they shoot at you.
6) Sometimes increased capacity if the shotgun can be ghost loaded.
7) The ability to be used one-handed if necessary. We practice shooting one-handed with handguns because we recognize that we won't always have both hands free. Being a long gun doesn't magically change this, but we ignore this reality with long guns because it leads to an uncomfortable realization that the most popular long guns might suck when used with one hand. At any rate, it would benefit you to choose a gun that can still be proficiently used one-handed, and that means going semi-auto. Pump shotguns become cripplingly slow and cumbersome to use one-handed. If you want to go the extra mile with regards to having a gun that is supremely easy to use one-handed, the IWI TS12 is the only worthwhile semi-auto bullpup shotgun on the market (post linked here: https://bit.ly/3Nk14f7).
8 ) More reliable, which is the entire focus of this post.

A semi-auto shotgun is objectively superior to a pump action shotgun.
If you have the funds to upgrade, you should do so.
For a traditional-styled semi-auto shotgun, a Beretta 1301 would be my recommendation, and they're surprisingly affordable, at only eleven to fourteen franklins. For a budget option, a Mossberg 930 can be had for six to eight franklins. If you can't afford that, then skip shotguns until you can afford a worthwhile one. Below that price point, just do what you probably should have already done and get an AR instead (and for a nuanced explanation of the reasons to choose between rifles and shotguns, head to this post: https://bit.ly/3xtU0XM). Skip all the turkish semi-auto shotguns.

For a bullpup, the IWI TS-12 is the only one worth bothering with. Do not make the mistake of letting your eyes gaze upon one of the turkish bullpup abominations, for like a beholder, they will corrupt your sanity, charm you with their turk magic, drain your intelligence, and drag you into the abyss where you will repeat "just az guud" for all of eternity.
Agreed. I've shot a lot of semi autos and have had very few malfunctions in both rifle and shotgun. I've also caused malfunctions due to human error in both pump and bolt actions.

I don't do a lot of pump action shooting, but still managed to break a Mossy 500 in a class. I DO shoot a LOT of bolt action and am regarded as pretty damn fast in a hunting situation. People that heard a couple of shots on a hog were amazed I was shooting a bolt rather than a semi. I short stroked on a big buck. That adrenaline got me.
 

Bear44

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Invalid agreement. You should be using an AR15 for home defense anything else is inferior. Am I right Bear44 Bear44
Yes! LOL!

Well, actually there are quite a few carbines that just beat the pants off a shotgun for SD. With that said, I did just buy several cheap Mavericks to arm the neighbors if the SHTF.
 

jaf1

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Are you assuming that you confront the target BEFORE you ratchet a round into the chamber? Would you wait until you confront the target BEFORE you put a round into the chamber of the semi auto. If so, you probably would already be dead.
That's what they do on tv.
 
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