New guy needs help with bill of sale

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

If for some reason the ATF or FBI traces a gun to you...
...It might save you a few hours worth of questioning if nothing else...

If the FBI / local cops actually follow the law and the Constitution
they shouldn't be arresting you and interrogating you unless they already have probable cause that you've committed a crime.
They shouldn't be searching your home w/o your permission unless a judge has signed a search warrant based on probable cause that the crime gun will be found there. The warrant should, in theory, only be valid if it is based on recent credible information - not "stale" information that several years ago you bought a gun from a gun dealer and no information about what's happened to it since then,
and knowing that Georgia is a state where guns are freely sold & traded without anybody updating the government records about that gun's current location.

Now if cops ask, rather than demanding, that you voluntarily do a Q&A session about some gun that you used to own, remember it's voluntary! You can say NO.
Or you could you but initially agree but not let it go on too long; you may end the interview at any time.

 

[CTS Tactical]

If the FBI / local cops actually follow the law and the Constitution
they shouldn't be arresting you and interrogating you unless they already have probable cause that you've committed a crime.
They shouldn't be searching your home w/o your permission unless a judge has signed a search warrant based on probable cause that the crime gun will be found there. The warrant should, in theory, only be valid if it is based on recent credible information - not "stale" information that several years ago you bought a gun from a gun dealer and no information about what's happened to it since then,
and knowing that Georgia is a state where guns are freely sold & traded without anybody updating the government records about that gun's current location.

Now if cops ask, rather than demanding, that you voluntarily do a Q&A session about some gun that you used to own, remember it's voluntary! You can say NO.
Or you could you but initially agree but not let it go on too long; you may end the interview at any time.

So as a lawyer you are telling me that you cannot be brought in for questioning without an arrest? I don't recall saying anything about any searches of your home or arrests or anything else. I said it may save you a few hours of questioning. The point is that they do not trace firearms out of boredom. They do it because the firearm was involved in something that I personally do not want to be connected to. Anything that I can do to show that I was not connected is in my interest. Do you somehow disagree with that?

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

I'm saying that having a bill of sale may be one way to "save yourself a few hours of time" being interrogated. But another way to save yourself that time would be just to say "no - I am not answering your questions." "No, I am not going to the police station with you voluntarily-- now go away."

If they detain you under color of law, then you are not free to go and thus that is an arrest! If they don't have probable cause for an arrest, they would have committed a violation of your rights and may be subject to a lawsuit themselves.

I like bills of sale, sure, but i'm just saying that it's somewhat of an exaggeration to say that only a BOS can save you from an unwanted police interrogation if some gun you owned long ago is later used in a crime.

 

[CTS Tactical]

So you don't think that being the last known person to own a firearm that was used to murder someone or used in an armed robbery or what ever and giving sketchy details or refusing to be questioned about what you did with said firearm is enough PC for further interrogation even possible search warrant or arrest? Isn't PC pretty much based on the gut feelings or whims of the investigating agent?

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

Absolutely not "gut feelings."

Probsble Cause must be based on a logical conclusion that you reach after reviewing all of the facts and circumstances and coming to reasonable conclusions and drawing reasonable inferences from that.

And it will be a magistrate judge, not a cop, that approves and signs search warrants and arrest warrants.

Again, just Google some of the terms related to search warrants and arrests based on probable cause. Pay attention to the doctrine of "stale" information --meaning old. Too old for you to presume that the key circumstances (such as the physical location of the evidence) has not been changed in the intervening weeks / months / years.

 

[CTS Tactical]

Semantics. You know as well as I do that a cop can find PC if he wants to arrest you. Of course I know it takes a judge to issue a warrant for a search but a cop on scene can arrest you without any judges permission if he feels he has PC (not to mention we are talking about federal agents and not local cops. You are trying to side step the point I was trying to make. Cooperation and a document, even hand written with the buyers name and address, date of sale could easily make your life a lot easier if it ever came to that kind of situation. You know it as well as I do. Just because my wording isn't perfect does not take away from that fact.

 

[Omega]

I usually do (or insist on, if I'm the seller) seeing ID and doing a written bill of sale on the kinds that turn up most often in crimes-- defensive handguns and paramilitary rifles.

I don't do it for selling a truly sporting gun, a .22 pistol, a hunting shotgun, etc.

I don't do receipts for trades, unless the other party wants a receipt. I do scribble a note to myself about when I acquired this new weapon, and I save that for my records. I try to have enough of a paper trail to remind myself where the guns in my collection came from, and when. Also where the ones that USED TO BE in my collection, but aren't now-- went.

and what good does any of that do? Specifically what good would having a bos in an event that the firearm was used in a crime do the original buyer? They did not commit the crime with the firearm. They 100% have plausible deniability at that point.

Anything past that makes you a wannabe ffl.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

"Cooperation and a document, even hand written with the buyers name and address, date of sale could easily make your life a lot easier if it ever came to that kind of situation."

Yeah, I said so here days ago.
I'm just correcting your false statement that without having a bill of sale,
cops can [legally] arrest you, drag you down to the police station,
and interrogate you.

But if your reply is that bad cops might illegally arrest you because in their mind decent people who sell guns will keep receipts and bills of sale...

... and if you don't, then you must be a criminal...
OK I'll give you that! Good point.
There ARE cops (and prosecutors, judges and jurors) who will definitely hold it against you for not having a bill of sale on a gun deal. So, even if those people are legally in the wrong, they nonetheless have power over your life so maybe it is better to appease them and take an extra step (making a B.o.S.) that the law doesn't specifically require.

 

[Omega]

"Cooperation and a document, even hand written with the buyers name and address, date of sale could easily make your life a lot easier if it ever came to that kind of situation."

Yeah, I said so here days ago.
I'm just correcting your false statement that without having a bill of sale,
cops can [legally] arrest you, drag you down to the police station,
and interrogate you.

But if your reply is that bad cops might illegally arrest you because in their mind decent people who sell guns will keep receipts and bills of sale...

... and if you don't, then you must be a criminal...
OK I'll give you that! Good point.
There ARE cops (and prosecutors, judges and jurors) who will definitely hold it against you for not having a bill of sale on a gun deal. So, even if those people are legally in the wrong, they nonetheless have power over your life so maybe it is better to appease them and take an extra step (making a B.o.S.) that the law doesn't specifically require.

good gracious at you and the hypothetical.

Here is the thing if you committed a crime with a gun... i have a hard time believing a judge says "well, he had his reciept/bos- he must be a GOOD criminal"

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

Are we in this thread talking about the potential value
of a bill of sale to a criminal? I didn't think so.