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NOT so accurate sniper rifles...........
- Thread starter 01coltcolt
- Start date
I agree. Cheap surplus ammo is the only advantage to an American shooter in 54R.
For Russians? Existing tooling. But that makes belt fed MG much more complicated, due to the rim.
And M14 is a cat's meow in DMR role.
PS, Bear, I threw you a bread crumb in my prior post, "SVD vs M14", and you did not see it. I am hurt.
The US wins again! 
As a "common shooter" I made the decision a few years ago to go with 54R only because it was cheaper to shoot.
I started with a PSL. Then an SVT-40, and then a VEPR. I won't mention the 91/30 or M44.
I knew the Russkies couldn't touch the M14's accuracy but I wanted to be able to shoot more for less.
Since I'm just a Joe and not a competitive shooter I'm fine with the decision I made.
One day I may venture into .308...
But yeah, never had any delusions that I could outshoot one of the .308 rifles...but I still have fun at CMP shooting my 16 cents/rd surplus ammo!
I started with a PSL. Then an SVT-40, and then a VEPR. I won't mention the 91/30 or M44.
I knew the Russkies couldn't touch the M14's accuracy but I wanted to be able to shoot more for less.
Since I'm just a Joe and not a competitive shooter I'm fine with the decision I made.
One day I may venture into .308...
But yeah, never had any delusions that I could outshoot one of the .308 rifles...but I still have fun at CMP shooting my 16 cents/rd surplus ammo!
Hell for that matter the label "sniper rifle" should only apply when there is a sniper who owns the rifle and is behind it. I am a firm believer in there are zero civilian(that have never been military) snipers. Snipers put to much blood sweat & tears into sniper training, to just be able to toss out that term, even if it is just at a rifle. I kind of feel like its micro stolen valor to me. But I am weird that way.
Really? 1 MOA or it ain't a sniper rifle?
The average law enforcement SWAT sniper only engages targets within 100 yards.
The average is 51 yards.
Only 5% of all police "sniper" work requires a shot beyond 100 yards, and the longest documented police sniper shot in recent history was 187 yards.
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3879
I'd be fine with 2" at 100 yards, or 4" at 200 yards, and that would be my maximum "head shot" or "hostage rescue" shot range. For armed adversaries who are exposing their torsos, and who aren't clutching innocent victims next to them, a 2 m.o.a. rifle ought to be lethal for one-shot-stops out to 400 yards (8" group, centered over the bad guy's chest, should put him down with any shot within that circle).
For police and "homeland defense" sniping in urban and suburban areas, then, I think that a 2 m.o.a. rifle is perfectly suitable as a "sniper rifle" if used as such by a person trained as a sniper / countersniper.
https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...ISS-ballistics-for-police-precision-riflemen/
Now for military use, and particularly the USA's fine military, with its high standards... sure.
Reserve the term "sniper rifle" only for guns that can keep 8" groups out to 800 yards, and take out bad guys from one hilltop to another, across the entire valley.
The average law enforcement SWAT sniper only engages targets within 100 yards.
The average is 51 yards.
Only 5% of all police "sniper" work requires a shot beyond 100 yards, and the longest documented police sniper shot in recent history was 187 yards.
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3879
I'd be fine with 2" at 100 yards, or 4" at 200 yards, and that would be my maximum "head shot" or "hostage rescue" shot range. For armed adversaries who are exposing their torsos, and who aren't clutching innocent victims next to them, a 2 m.o.a. rifle ought to be lethal for one-shot-stops out to 400 yards (8" group, centered over the bad guy's chest, should put him down with any shot within that circle).
For police and "homeland defense" sniping in urban and suburban areas, then, I think that a 2 m.o.a. rifle is perfectly suitable as a "sniper rifle" if used as such by a person trained as a sniper / countersniper.
https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...ISS-ballistics-for-police-precision-riflemen/
Now for military use, and particularly the USA's fine military, with its high standards... sure.
Reserve the term "sniper rifle" only for guns that can keep 8" groups out to 800 yards, and take out bad guys from one hilltop to another, across the entire valley.
Don't quote stats to me about a business I've been in for over 25 years. I am well aware of average LE Sniper engagements distances, as I deployed in over 1,000 live call outs. You?
A hostage rescue shot can be an extremely dicey shot. Also, just because a rifle is capable of 1MOA does not mean that the Sniper, under stress and in field conditions, will always be capable of 1MOA. Taking a shot under real conditions is stressful, the Sniper may have just run a distance, or climbed a ladder, or been shot at. So, he may double the capabilities of the rifle and ammo.
The target will rarely sit still and allow you to make that shot. You may have to thread the shot in between obstructions and barriers. You may have been lying in the cold, shivering, for hours before you are able to take the shot.
You may have to jump in a helicopter and make a shot from that platform. I'm certified to teach Aerial Platform Sniping, and I've shot several thousand training rounds over the years from helos. You want all the accuracy you can get when you have to do that!
Suddenly, 1MOA is 2MOA, or worse.
Never confuse what folks can do on a training range or in competition with how they can actually perform when it's for real.
Also, that 51 yards is often quoted but isn't entirely true. It varies from year-to-year.......ASA is one of the organizations that keeps tabs on this. The other issue with this stat is that not all LE Sniper engagements are "turned in" to the proper folks who keep such stats, and not everyone gets the same stats. One organization will stated that it's 51 yards and another will state that it's 74 yards. The longest distance I ever set up on a callous was a lasered distance of 99 yards. For those of y'all that are curious, that is the distance from the rooftop of the KFC on Delk Rd in Marietta to the front door of the Spaghetti Warehouse across the street. Urban LE's, like Marietta, will typically have engagement distances of 100 yards and less. I've trained with Sheriff's Office and State Police Snipers from out West that routinely set up at distances of 200-300 yards, with occasional distances of more than that.
In addition, the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) states that an LE Sniper's rifle and ammunition should be a 1MOA or better rig. Other organizations like the American Sniper Association (ASA) state the same. These are the organizations that will be called in as "expert witnesses" when things go wrong.
I'm a certified Police CounterSniper Instructor with over 25 years of military and LE experience. I train and certify LE officers around the nation as "Snipers". When I say that a Sniper rifle needs to be capable of 1MOA of accuracy or better, that is not my personal opinion. That is a fact bolstered by military, LE, and industry professionals from around the world.
I don't completely agree with this, but you make a hell of a good point about the work and training a person goes through to carry the title of "Sniper". It's a lot more than just being able to put rounds on target.
