NOT so accurate sniper rifles...........

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

CMshoot..... get ahold of yourself, dude.
It's still just your OPINION.
It may be (and I concede it is) an EXPERT opinion, based on training and experience.
But it's still an opinion.
If you don't think it's just your expert opinion, show me some handbook or policy manual from unquestioned authority that says "sniper rifles must shoot 1 m.o.a. or better."
Show me that in the kind of reference book or manual that is so authoritative, without question, that a court could take "judicial notice" of it as a "fact."
If it ain't a fact, it's just an opinion.

And that's a fact !

 

[Bear44]

Really? 1 MOA or it ain't a sniper rifle?
The average law enforcement SWAT sniper only engages targets within 100 yards.
The average is 51 yards.
Only 5% of all police "sniper" work requires a shot beyond 100 yards, and the longest documented police sniper shot in recent history was 187 yards.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3879

I'd be fine with 2" at 100 yards, or 4" at 200 yards, and that would be my maximum "head shot" or "hostage rescue" shot range. For armed adversaries who are exposing their torsos, and who aren't clutching innocent victims next to them, a 2 m.o.a. rifle ought to be lethal for one-shot-stops out to 400 yards (8" group, centered over the bad guy's chest, should put him down with any shot within that circle).

For police and "homeland defense" sniping in urban and suburban areas, then, I think that a 2 m.o.a. rifle is perfectly suitable as a "sniper rifle" if used as such by a person trained as a sniper / countersniper.

https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...ISS-ballistics-for-police-precision-riflemen/

Now for military use, and particularly the USA's fine military, with its high standards... sure.
Reserve the term "sniper rifle" only for guns that can keep 8" groups out to 800 yards, and take out bad guys from one hilltop to another, across the entire valley.

Police snipers are required to make much more precise shots than you give them credit for. Often times an inch counts. I've seen video of a police sniper saving a man's life by shooting the weapon out of his hand. Also, the area of the head that instantly disables any motor function is very small. Only about 1.5 inches in diameter. It's not a head shot that turns people off like a switch, it's a head shot in precisely the right spot.

You also seem to think that what a weapon will do on a bench in a controlled environment is exactly what it will do in the field. Not the case at all. Accuracy flaws are cumulative. Environmental conditions, improvised shooting positions, adrenaline in the shooter, respiration and heart rate issues from recent physical activity, unpredictable movement of the target... etc, all contribute to decreased accuracy. The easiest one to control is the accuracy of the rifle, so a very high standard for that accuracy is required.

 

[Bear44]

Don't quote stats to me about a business I've been in for over 25 years. I am well aware of average LE Sniper engagements distances, as I deployed in over 1,000 live call outs. You?

A hostage rescue shot can be an extremely dicey shot. Also, just because a rifle is capable of 1MOA does not mean that the Sniper, under stress and in field conditions, will always be capable of 1MOA. Taking a shot under real conditions is stressful, the Sniper may have just run a distance, or climbed a ladder, or been shot at. So, he may double the capabilities of the rifle and ammo.

The target will rarely sit still and allow you to make that shot. You may have to thread the shot in between obstructions and barriers. You may have been lying in the cold, shivering, for hours before you are able to take the shot.

You may have to jump in a helicopter and make a shot from that platform. I'm certified to teach Aerial Platform Sniping, and I've shot several thousand training rounds over the years from helos. You want all the accuracy you can get when you have to do that!

Suddenly, 1MOA is 2MOA, or worse.

Never confuse what folks can do on a training range or in competition with how they can actually perform when it's for real.

Also, that 51 yards is often quoted but isn't entirely true. It varies from year-to-year.......ASA is one of the organizations that keeps tabs on this. The other issue with this stat is that not all LE Sniper engagements are "turned in" to the proper folks who keep such stats, and not everyone gets the same stats. One organization will stated that it's 51 yards and another will state that it's 74 yards. The longest distance I ever set up on a callous was a lasered distance of 99 yards. For those of y'all that are curious, that is the distance from the rooftop of the KFC on Delk Rd in Marietta to the front door of the Spaghetti Warehouse across the street. Urban LE's, like Marietta, will typically have engagement distances of 100 yards and less. I've trained with Sheriff's Office and State Police Snipers from out West that routinely set up at distances of 200-300 yards, with occasional distances of more than that.

In addition, the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) states that an LE Sniper's rifle and ammunition should be a 1MOA or better rig. Other organizations like the American Sniper Association (ASA) state the same. These are the organizations that will be called in as "expert witnesses" when things go wrong.

I'm a certified Police CounterSniper Instructor with over 25 years of military and LE experience. I train and certify LE officers around the nation as "Snipers". When I say that a Sniper rifle needs to be capable of 1MOA of accuracy or better, that is not my personal opinion. That is a fact bolstered by military, LE, and industry professionals from around the world.

Dude, I swear I'm not posting based on what you're saying. You just keep beating me to the punch and then I don't see your post until after I've responded. I should start checking first. LOL!

 

[Bear44]

CMshoot..... get ahold of yourself, dude.
It's still just your OPINION.
It may be (and I concede it is) an EXPERT opinion, based on training and experience.
But it's still an opinion.
If you don't think it's just your expert opinion, show me some handbook or policy manual from unquestioned authority that says "sniper rifles must shoot 1 m.o.a. or better."
Show me that in the kind of reference book or manual that is so authoritative, without question, that a court could take "judicial notice" of it as a "fact."
If it ain't a fact, it's just an opinion.

And that's a fact !

You're joking, right?

Who do you think is going to write that book or give the testimony that will decide the court's ruling? An expert! Say, like someone that has deployed as a police sniper on over 1000 occasions and has been a Marine Scout Sniper. Someone that teaches this stuff every day as their profession. Hmm, I wonder if we know anyone like that? D,JD!

 

[cmshoot]

CMshoot..... get ahold of yourself, dude.
It's still just your OPINION.
It may be (and I concede it is) an EXPERT opinion, based on training and experience.
But it's still an opinion.
If you don't think it's just your expert opinion, show me some handbook or policy manual from unquestioned authority that says "sniper rifles must shoot 1 m.o.a. or better."
Show me that in the kind of reference book or manual that is so authoritative, without question, that a court could take "judicial notice" of it as a "fact."
If it ain't a fact, it's just an opinion.

And that's a fact !

You have no background, experience, or training in military or LE Sniping matters.......please correct me if I am wrong in this.

You're going to tell me what a Sniper rifle should be capable of? I wouldn't tell you what kind of word processor to write your books on, and I wouldn't tell my mechanic that he's using the wrong tools. Why? I know to restrict my statements to matters I know about.......or, as we say in the Corps, I stay in my lane.

Governing bodies such as NTOA and IALEFI, as well as others, have set the standard that an LE Sniper rifle needs to be capable of 1MOA or better accuracy with the proper ammunition. Every single LE Sniper school I have attended or taught holds to a 1MOA standard. When I received my Police CounterSniper Instructor certification from Blackwater International, that was the standard that we were trained to use to certify students as Police CounterSnipers.

NTOA and IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, of which I am a member) have been called into court on thousands of occasions to testify for or against officers/agencies. The courts take judicial notice when these organizations testify on matters within their bailiwick. They are recognized as the subject matter experts. For instance, when Cobb Co PD had 2 SWAT officers killed in the line of duty when making entry on a barricaded gunmen, NTOA was brought in to testify to the court on how the entire SWAT callout should have been conducted. The court used the NTOA's testimony as the perfect standard and then compared Cobb Co PD's actions to this "yardstick" to see if it measured up.

Is there documentation written by these governing bodies (NTOA, IALEFI, ASA, etc.) that state this FACT. Dang skippy there is. Will I huntit down to win an internet argument with someone who has very little grasp of what they are talking about? Dang skippy I won't. If one of my students was being charged criminally, or sued civilly, and I was called in to testify, I would lay my hands on all that documentation and present it to the relevant court. Since I'm not being subpoenaed, and I ain't getting paid to testify, I'm not about to go through that kind of search.

I have testified in court on previous occasions on matters pertaining to LE Sniping and Sniper Training and on every occasion was vetted by the court and recognized as a Subject Matter Expert. So, I guess you could say that makes my statement on the matter a "fact" and not an "opinion". Due to one of the cases I testified in, I've been called in on more than one occasion to be on FOX News as a subject matter expert on Sniping matters, both military and LE.

 

[bulletpaluza]

You have no background, experience, or training in military or LE Sniping matters.......please correct me if I am wrong in this.

You're going to tell me what a Sniper rifle should be capable of? I wouldn't tell you what kind of word processor to write your books on, and I wouldn't tell my mechanic that he's using the wrong tools. Why? I know to restrict my statements to matters I know about.......or, as we say in the Corps, I stay in my lane.

Governing bodies such as NTOA and IALEFI, as well as others, have set the standard that an LE Sniper rifle needs to be capable of 1MOA or better accuracy with the proper ammunition. Every single LE Sniper school I have attended or taught holds to a 1MOA standard. When I received my Police CounterSniper Instructor certification from Blackwater International, that was the standard that we were trained to use to certify students as Police CounterSnipers.

NTOA and IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, of which I am a member) have been called into court on thousands of occasions to testify for or against officers/agencies. The courts take judicial notice when these organizations testify on matters within their bailiwick. They are recognized as the subject matter experts. For instance, when Cobb Co PD had 2 SWAT officers killed in the line of duty when making entry on a barricaded gunmen, NTOA was brought in to testify to the court on how the entire SWAT callout should have been conducted. The court used the NTOA's testimony as the perfect standard and then compared Cobb Co PD's actions to this "yardstick" to see if it measured up.

Is there documentation written by these governing bodies (NTOA, IALEFI, ASA, etc.) that state this FACT. Dang skippy there is. Will I huntit down to win an internet argument with someone who has very little grasp of what they are talking about? Dang skippy I won't. If one of my students was being charged criminally, or sued civilly, and I was called in to testify, I would lay my hands on all that documentation and present it to the relevant court. Since I'm not being subpoenaed, and I ain't getting paid to testify, I'm not about to go through that kind of search.

I have testified in court on previous occasions on matters pertaining to LE Sniping and Sniper Training and on every occasion was vetted by the court and recognized as a Subject Matter Expert. So, I guess you could say that makes my statement on the matter a "fact" and not an "opinion". Due to one of the cases I testified in, I've been called in on more than one occasion to be on FOX News as a subject matter expert on Sniping matters, both military and LE.

 

[Bear44]

You have no background, experience, or training in military or LE Sniping matters.......please correct me if I am wrong in this.

You're going to tell me what a Sniper rifle should be capable of? I wouldn't tell you what kind of word processor to write your books on, and I wouldn't tell my mechanic that he's using the wrong tools. Why? I know to restrict my statements to matters I know about.......or, as we say in the Corps, I stay in my lane.

Governing bodies such as NTOA and IALEFI, as well as others, have set the standard that an LE Sniper rifle needs to be capable of 1MOA or better accuracy with the proper ammunition. Every single LE Sniper school I have attended or taught holds to a 1MOA standard. When I received my Police CounterSniper Instructor certification from Blackwater International, that was the standard that we were trained to use to certify students as Police CounterSnipers.

NTOA and IALEFI (International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, of which I am a member) have been called into court on thousands of occasions to testify for or against officers/agencies. The courts take judicial notice when these organizations testify on matters within their bailiwick. They are recognized as the subject matter experts. For instance, when Cobb Co PD had 2 SWAT officers killed in the line of duty when making entry on a barricaded gunmen, NTOA was brought in to testify to the court on how the entire SWAT callout should have been conducted. The court used the NTOA's testimony as the perfect standard and then compared Cobb Co PD's actions to this "yardstick" to see if it measured up.

Is there documentation written by these governing bodies (NTOA, IALEFI, ASA, etc.) that state this FACT. Dang skippy there is. Will I huntit down to win an internet argument with someone who has very little grasp of what they are talking about? Dang skippy I won't. If one of my students was being charged criminally, or sued civilly, and I was called in to testify, I would lay my hands on all that documentation and present it to the relevant court. Since I'm not being subpoenaed, and I ain't getting paid to testify, I'm not about to go through that kind of search.

I have testified in court on previous occasions on matters pertaining to LE Sniping and Sniper Training and on every occasion was vetted by the court and recognized as a Subject Matter Expert. So, I guess you could say that makes my statement on the matter a "fact" and not an "opinion". Due to one of the cases I testified in, I've been called in on more than one occasion to be on FOX News as a subject matter expert on Sniping matters, both military and LE.

BOOM!

pun intended.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

Cm, if all the reputable sniper manuals and "industry" standards say the modern sniper rifle must shoot 1 minute or better, THAT is the kind of fact that is not fairly in question.

I'll still point out to everyone participating in or reading this thread that the average real-life sniper shot is short.

If you don't think I should bring up this fact, well, too bad.

You're posting in a public forum called TheOutDoorsTrader, not some hypothetical "Ask a Master Sniper" site that you run. The OP didn't ask YOU exclusively for your opinion. If you want to have private conversations between experts like you and laypeople like me, take it to PM's or start your own blog where you can have a "safe space" to tell people what links to which articles you do or don't approve of.

P.S. Even if it weren't an established industry standard for "sniper rifle" accuracy, your mere opinion is still way more valuable than mine. I agree with that.

 

[Bear44]

Cm, if all the reputable sniper manuals and "industry" standards say the modern sniper rifle must shoot 1 minute or better, THAT is the kind of fact that is not fairly in question.

I'll still point out to everyone participating in or reading this thread that the average real-life sniper shot is short.

If you don't think I should bring up this fact, well, too bad.

You're posting in a public forum called TheOutDoorsTrader, not some hypothetical "Ask a Master Sniper" site that you run. The OP didn't ask YOU exclusively for your opinion. If you want to have private conversations between experts like you and laypeople like me, take it to PM's or start your own blog where you can have a "safe space" to tell people what links to which articles you do or don't approve of.

P.S. Even if it weren't an established industry standard for "sniper rifle" accuracy, your mere opinion is still way more valuable than mine. I agree with that.

So, you can say his opinion is wrong (unsolicited, I might add), yet when he disagrees with you and points out the fact he is expertly qualified to answer the question, he should do it in private message or start another thread. Yeah, that's the ticket. It sounds more like you are the one with the double standard and needs a safe space so you won't be offended. Snowflakes popping up everywhere.

The best way to remove it is to stop using the orifice.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

Bear, re-read this thread and try again.
Your summary is way off.
I agree he's an expert, but not all expert opinions are infallible and not reasonably subject to challenge.
His references to sniper school/ association / industry standards is the real proof that settles the question.

Anyhow, I don't appreciate anybody here telling another poster that they shouldn't cite articles and quote statistics that the resident expert doesn't want to hear, or, worse, in a fit of pride and arrogance, dismisses as unworthy of consideration. (In case you get confused again, Bear, I'm speaking of the articles I posted links to about the distances at which police snipers shoot).