Solar Power

[Ret60sp]

Looking around on ODT and I can't seem to find a thread that discusses the merits and limitations of solar power. I'm not a self-declared "expert" but we do have a pretty extensive system here that includes 25Kw battery backup, 20Kw generator integration and 17Kw of solar. What most people don't realize is even with all of this, its barely enough for the house if the grid goes down, and ONE EV would suck the life out of the entire system. Imagine if we had two or three EV's in each household!

So I'm hoping to open a thread here to answer the questions about having a solar power system, what it can and cannot do, and not have any financial incentive to convince anyone one way or the other. I'm not a solar seller. I don't install solar systems. We do have a really good system here, but it has its limits.

No, I didn't vote for Biden. I think 100% EV's are not the answer. Hybrid - maybe. Having a battery backup at home - absolutely. Running a generator (only) in a grid down scenario - not sustainable for more than a few days at most (I can explain why).

Anyone interested in this discussion? Questions? Post them here or PM me if you are shy and I'll give you what I personally know to be true. Just know that any true prepper has this as a plan, and its really important that you get the 411 (G2) before writing a check or signing a contract or ordering that DIY kit from signature solar.

 

[Ret60sp]

For instance: Did you know that almost all solar power inverters will not provide ANY power in a grid-down scenario? No kidding! The reason why depends on your system and how its installed. If you don't have batteries attached to your inverter your system will NOT produce power in a grid-down scenario - even if you have a generator! Your generator will not produce a clean and stable enough sine wave @60 herts to satisfy most solar inverters. Most (probably all) solar inverters that do not have battery backup connected directly to the (hybrid) inverter need a stable 60 hertz (+/- 0.5 hz) for 5 minutes solid before they will switch on. As soon as they switch on and provide power to the circuit this UNLOADS the generator, causing it to slightly OVERSPEED momentarily (producing 61+ hz) which causes the solar inverter to disconnect (producing NO power). This situation cycles repeatedly until the inverter fails, the generator fails, or they both fail. And there's more....

 

[JBWJr]

No rocket surgery involved.
No magic, either.
Produce DC with panels;
Store DC in batteries;
Invert DC to utility AC with inverter.
Use locally or sell back to the utility.
Generators are for last ditch backup and not meant to attach to, or augment the system.

 

[Ret60sp]

You guys are all correct. Grid power is less expensive TODAY. A Generator and a propane tank as a backup source of power is good for maybe a week. Do the math. A "rented" 250 gallon LPG tank is only filled to 80%, or 200 gallons. A standby 20Kw generator uses 2-3.5 gph (2.8 average) meaning you get 200/2.8 = 71 hours (<3 days) of run time on a 250 gallon tank, 142 hours (<6 days) on a 500 gallon tank, and 284 hours (<12 days) on a 1000 gallon tank. I hope all of your grid power is underground and you live on a string that has been deemed "critical infrastructure" by your power company because a winter storm, a solar flare, EMP burst, over-utilization (more EV's), vandalism and a myriad of other possibilities continue to get worse yet the government is doing nothing to bolster the infrastructure to meet the threats to the grid.

Most neighborhoods built prior to 2019 do not have base transformers large enough to double the electrical capacity of the neighborhood. Electric vehicles TODAY operate at about 3 miles per kilowatt. Anyone who commutes into and out of Atlanta for work will incur about 100 in a round trip. 100 miles divided by 3 = 34 kilowatts of power to replenish the car each night. The average home here in Georgia only consumes 55 kilowatts per day. If the infrastructure built into a typical neighborhood is designed for 60 Kw homes, and homeowners start an additional 35 Kw load each day, you won't be able to keep the lights on 24/7. The infrastructure will fail, and as the utility companies struggle to manage the the problem we'll see under voltage and under frequency conditions across the grid.

The math related to investing in a solar system with batteries and a backup generator should also consider the occasional week of having no power. If you have a large freezer full of meat, that could easily exceed $3k in losses in perishable goods alone. Add in the frozen pipes and ruptured infrastructure, repair costs associated therein and you could easily see a $5k loss should the power go out for a week. Sure, if your chest frezer is in your garage and a severe winter storm comes though that plummets temperatures below freezing for the entire duration, sure, your meat will be safe. However, if your chest freezer is indoors or those daytime temps get into the 40's, you have a real problem with preserving that meat.

So the numbers need to include the losses you might incur in a disaster situation.

Another real factor is the under-frequency and under-voltage issues which will damage all of our compressors. As more and more people add EV's to the grid, we are going to start seeing brownouts and under frequency disconnects. The damage each one of the occurrences has on our air-conditioners, heatpumps, refrigerators, freezers and pool pumps become cumulative. It reduces the service life of these appliances. So a hybrid inverter with a battery backup system will "boost" the incoming power and clean it up if you get a hybrid inverter. The schematic above that JBWJr shows does not necessarily depict a hybrid inverter.

A hybrid inverter should be able to control the start and stop of the generator. Why? Because if the grid goes down, you really might not need your generator to start immediately if you have a battery backup and inverter large enough to operate your critical loads until the battery bank needs to be recharged. Thats where a solar system shines again - it keeps the generator from needing to operate 24/7. In a balanced design, 25Kw of battery storage should manage all of the critical loads overnight. Once the sun rises and the solar system starts producing enough power to take over and start recharging the batteries while handling the critical loads, you might not need to operate a generator at all. If the weather is inclimate and cloudy, the generator might be needed for 90 minutes every 12 hours - to recharge the batteries quickly while also operating EVERYTHING in the home.

So yes, today I agree. Its less expensive to just get our power from the grid. The question is: how long will it remain reliable and how long before they double, triple, or quadruple the price per kilowatt, impose a carbon tax and want to charge us 56 cents a kilowatt like they charge my buddy Andreas in Germany right now?

Right now our power costs about 12 cents a kilowatt here in NE Georgia (after taxes, fees, junk). The average home uses 1650 kilowatts per month or about $200/month in electricity. If yours is higher just adjust the math. Right now, in mainland Europe the price per kilowatt is 4.5x higher than it is here at 56 cents per kilowatt That means your $200/mo power bill would be $933/month if the mainland Europe power model works its way into the United States.

There was mention of solar systems and batteries failing after 25 years. Thats true. But thats true with anything. If your appliances are subject to erratic voltages and under/over voltage, they will fail prematurely as well. So a solar system doesn't mathematically compete against just the cost per kilowatt TODAY. It has to include the anticipated inflation of the cost per kilowatt in the near future, as well as the shortened lifespan of all of your other high-dollar appliances we all own. Anyone priced a new washer & dryer set recently? Our new LG set cost $3500 at Costco. Do I really want to find myself in need of replacing them in 10 years because they operated in a hostile power environment? Again, this is where the hybrid inverter shines and saves the day.

Solar alone is not all cracked up to be the savior. In fact, I'd say the inverter, battery bank and the standby generator are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than the solar panels. If a homeowner had the same system without solar panels, and just used the batteries as a load balancing "time of use" offset to not use as much grid power when grid prices are highest, and then recharge the batteries from the grid later at night (much like an EV), this system would also be a good idea.

Thoughts?

 

[moosensquirrel]

Solar Power: the renewable Burden on American Tax Payers

excerpt from an article I wrote for the local "mullet wrap".........

Solar-photovoltaic power is not a “green” technology. Being “green” is a deceptive PC-socialist-political invention that is designed to make people feel good about living lavishly riding the backs of productive taxpayers without having to put forth any effort to understand, much less solve the underlying problems associated with “green” energy. While solar-photovoltaic power is relatively clean at the point of production, the manufacture and installation of the necessary solar-photovoltaic components needed to produce it is not.

There are virtually no USA manufacturers of solar-photovoltaic cells today due to environmental regulations. Over 75% of the solar poly-silicone, cadmium telluride and silicon tetrachloride cells produced today are made in China where there are no environmental controls whatsoever. It is only a matter of time, (think Fukushima) until the pollution from foreign manufacturing and toxic waste dumping reaches us here, notwithstanding the pollution from disposal of existing solar-photovoltaic products are probably here now.

Factories around the world that produce solar-photovoltaic components are spewing fossil fuel pollutants into the environment simply because using solar power to produce their own solar energy-producing products is cost prohibitive. There is a host of environmentally hazardous chemical-cocktails involved in the manufacture of photovoltaic cells such as tri-methyl gallium, tri-methyl aluminum, tri-methyl indium, and other tri-ethyl derivatives including hydrogen-selenide, di-methyl-hydrazine, silane, and worst of all, arsine. As an example, a typical solar-photovoltaic-component manufacturing facility with a 10 MW/year production of flat-panel solar-photovoltaic-modules will put about 25 tons of arsine a year into the environment. Arsine is a chemical with toxicity equal to methyl-isocyanide, the chemical released in the Bhopal/Union Carbide incident. Include the pollution from the mining, processing, and transportation of raw-materials used by the solar-photovoltaic industry, and a different picture of “green” energy unveils.

While solar energy from the sun is free, harnessing it into usable AC-electrical energy is not.

The cost of solar-photovoltaic AC-power, at the point of production is several times higher than the cost of the same power produced by coal burning plants. A typical Georgia Power bill using only utility based solar-photovoltaic energy could be 2 to 3 times higher than one based on the current combination of energy sources.

Solar power inverters do not produce reactive power for powering inductive loads, nor do they function when a cloud comes over the array. So, the utiility must have essentially 100% spinning reserve to cover the reactive load that should be (but cannot be) produced by the inverters, and the likelihood that a solar producing plant can shutdown at any time, especially during cloudy or rainey weather.

However, government promotion of solar and wind power in the USA today, is simply another socialist one-way wealth-redistribution scheme and a regressive tax on rate-payers.

Don't forget that when solar panels die, usually after 5 years or so, they are considered hazardous waste, and must be disposed of at considerable expense....kind of like a death tax.

However, rest assured that somewhere hidden in the taxpayer-funding for all government-subsidized solar projects is usually an embedded “gift” for someone, somewhere.

 

[Seacap]

Looking around on ODT and I can't seem to find a thread that discusses the merits and limitations of solar power. I'm not a self-declared "expert" but we do have a pretty extensive system here that includes 25Kw battery backup, 20Kw generator integration and 17Kw of solar. What most people don't realize is even with all of this, its barely enough for the house if the grid goes down, and ONE EV would suck the life out of the entire system. Imagine if we had two or three EV's in each household!

So I'm hoping to open a thread here to answer the questions about having a solar power system, what it can and cannot do, and not have any financial incentive to convince anyone one way or the other. I'm not a solar seller. I don't install solar systems. We do have a really good system here, but it has its limits.

No, I didn't vote for Biden. I think 100% EV's are not the answer. Hybrid - maybe. Having a battery backup at home - absolutely. Running a generator (only) in a grid down scenario - not sustainable for more than a few days at most (I can explain why).

Anyone interested in this discussion? Questions? Post them here or PM me if you are shy and I'll give you what I personally know to be true. Just know that any true prepper has this as a plan, and its really important that you get the 411 (G2) before writing a check or signing a contract or ordering that DIY kit from signature solarAny solar system

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The only thing I’d add is in a doomsday scenario or emergency situation, you are not driving your EV to work. Your home getting and staying warm, fed and safe. I don’t think you need to account for your EV in emergencies.

A solid plan would include all of the following but money is always limited so we do the best we can.

1) 3 vehicles minimum- 1. EV 2. Normal gas and 3. hybrid

2) multiple redundant sources of power: grid, generators, solar, wind, etc

3) Food Water storage and ability to self generate both.

If had the money, I would not have a mansion or a Ferrari- I’d make sure I have all the things listed above.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I’m also hoping that technology continues to make great strides forward and within 5-10 years solar is more efficient and affordable.

 

[Seacap]

Any solar system for your house without batteries is half a system, your batteries must be compatible with your inverters; inverters go obsolete, I also have a 29 panel system for my house, I also have 2 enphase batteries with enphase inverters, it runs the entire house, leave out the water heater, clothes dryer, microwave and stove. This system with a nice generic generator on it would be a good thing, with the right software, u could charge your batteries for the solar system off your generator, u could also fry your system doing this, better know what your doing!...I don’t do this to mine....About affordability, my system will never pay for its self in my life time, it was $62,000, with a 25 year guarantee, batteries last about 15 to 20 years..if your looking for affordable do not go solar!..also an EMP blast will fry your inverters. I hope this information helps someone make a decision...if your a green nut? Then consider the lithium in these batteries, and disposing them in 20 years ! Lithium is very toxic, should probably never be mined!

 

[Seacap]

Solar Power: the renewable Burden on American Tax Payers

excerpt from an article I wrote for the local "mullet wrap".........

Solar-photovoltaic power is not a “green” technology. Being “green” is a deceptive PC-socialist-political invention that is designed to make people feel good about living lavishly riding the backs of productive taxpayers without having to put forth any effort to understand, much less solve the underlying problems associated with “green” energy. While solar-photovoltaic power is relatively clean at the point of production, the manufacture and installation of the necessary solar-photovoltaic components needed to produce it is not.

There are virtually no USA manufacturers of solar-photovoltaic cells today due to environmental regulations. Over 75% of the solar poly-silicone, cadmium telluride and silicon tetrachloride cells produced today are

Speaking of chemical cocktails mentioned in the making of solar panels and lithium batteries, mix all those toxins with lets say red tide, which occurs in pretty much all salt water bodies, and lets say the raw sewage that is dumped as a normal practice every where on the Gulf coast from the sewage treatment plants, before a hurricane (so that it isn’t in the streets) and u have a mixture that will blister your skin..already in Destin there is a high lever of breast cancer in woman, I personally know of 2 cases of Lou Garret’s in Destin alone.. the dispersant used in the BP oil spill didn’t help too much, my friend was the captain at ground zero of that mess and pumping that poison into the gulf 24/7 so no one saw all the oil, there is a body of oil on the bottom of the gulf just waiting to show it’s ugly head !..I had to bury my friend the other day, he died because the dispersant BP claims they never used gave him every kind of cancer u could imagine..We are Destin captains! Also be careful of what u eat coming out of the Gulf of Mexico, no one knows what the shelf life is on that chemical used!

made in China where there are no environmental controls whatsoever. It is only a matter of time, (think Fukushima) until the pollution from foreign manufacturing and toxic waste dumping reaches us here, notwithstanding the pollution from disposal of existing solar-photovoltaic products are probably here now.

Factories around the world that produce solar-photovoltaic components are spewing fossil fuel pollutants into the environment simply because using solar power to produce their own solar energy-producing products is cost prohibitive. There is a host of environmentally hazardous chemical-cocktails involved in the manufacture of photovoltaic cells such as tri-methyl gallium, tri-methyl aluminum, tri-methyl indium, and other tri-ethyl derivatives including hydrogen-selenide, di-methyl-hydrazine, silane, and worst of all, arsine. As an example, a typical solar-photovoltaic-component manufacturing facility with a 10 MW/year production of flat-panel solar-photovoltaic-modules will put about 25 tons of arsine a year into the environment. Arsine is a chemical with toxicity equal to methyl-isocyanide, the chemical released in the Bhopal/Union Carbide incident. Include the pollution from the mining, processing, and transportation of raw-materials used by the solar-photovoltaic industry, and a different picture of “green” energy unveils.

While solar energy from the sun is free, harnessing it into usable AC-electrical energy is not.

The cost of solar-photovoltaic AC-power, at the point of production is several times higher than the cost of the same power produced by coal burning plants. A typical Georgia Power bill using only utility based solar-photovoltaic energy could be 2 to 3 times higher than one based on the current combination of energy sources.

Solar power inverters do not produce reactive power for powering inductive loads, nor do they function when a cloud comes over the array. So, the utiility must have essentially 100% spinning reserve to cover the reactive load that should be (but cannot be) produced by the inverters, and the likelihood that a solar producing plant can shutdown at any time, especially during cloudy or rainey weather.

However, government promotion of solar and wind power in the USA today, is simply another socialist one-way wealth-redistribution scheme and a regressive tax on rate-payers.

Don't forget that when solar panels die, usually after 5 years or so, they are considered hazardous waste, and must be disposed of at considerable expense....kind of like a death tax.

However, rest assured that somewhere hidden in the taxpayer-funding for all government-subsidized solar projects is usually an embedded “gift” for someone, somewhere.

Speaking of chemical cocktails, mix the chemicals