Thoughts on this?

[SirBannedAlot]

Had not considered that angle...

So then what would you recommend to people, to help keep them out of trouble? Is there a point, that as a lawyer, where you yourself would start to be concerned about the number of transactions?

 

[Glorfindel]

I wouldn't worry about the number of transactions. selling a few guns over 2-3 years isn't running an illegal business. buying 70-80 guns over course of few months with the intent to sell for profit is a different story all together.

 

[gh1950]

THIS! The law says one cannot buy and sell firearms as a sole business without a license.

That's not the correct definition, or the standard used by LEO.

 

[gh1950]

But it does. I just wonder what the law considers a "casual trader", versus an unlicensed dealer...


Part of me feels like there is a point at which the law would look at the sheer volume one person has partaken of, and would decide, "This guy is dealing guns without a license, this goes beyond the casual private transaction" case...

It is fact based. People are always asking "how many guns can I sell before I am considered a dealer." And there is no pat answer to that question.

Somewhere way back, BATF made a statement that they don't routinely police the internet because they don't have the manpower. Anyone who participates in any gun related forum with a S&S can see that that is true.

You can go to any large flea market on a weekend and probably find one old neckbeard there selling guns that have been drug behind a pickup for "Blue Book" prices.

Typically, the BATF pursues "unlicensed dealers" when there is another, easier to prove charge to accompany it. Which is the case in article cited by OP. BATF recognizes that they have an almost impossible task of distinguishing between "serious enthusiast" and "unlicensed dealer."

We had a local case where they charged an unlicensed dealer for selling guns to a felon, and through in the unlicensed dealer charge. He had been selling guns for years at a local flea market, so clearly he wasn't a bright spot on BATF's radar.

BTW, one more argument for NOT getting a BOS. You might have 400 feedback here, all for gun transactions, but you might have 400 more gun transactions that originated in other venues, and overall you lost money. It would be up to BATF to prove that your transactions on ODT were all the transactions in which you engaged.

BTW, there is one moderator who got a time out on the forum whose name shall not be uttered for too many gun transactions.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

ATF's own easy-to -read 15 page F.A.Q. on this topic.
https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

I think (guess) that if ATF were to get a tip about a suspected unlicensed dealer, or that seller git on ATF's radar for some other reason,

20 or more gun sales or trades (not buys) per year would look suspicious and merit further investigation. Remember, much of the American public thinks "one gun per month" is plenty for any normal person. Significantly more than that isn't "per se" illegal, and it's not even enough to get a search warrant, but it could trigger more investigation of the type that doesn't implicate the 4th Amendment.

As for me, I never sell guns quickly after I acquire them, never "new" or "unfired." Even if I only owned them a few months, I've taken them shooting at least a few times and shot hundreds of rounds of ammo through them. If I sell a gun within months after I bought it, it's either because I don't like it or I saw something else that I liked even more, and I sell one to fund the purchase of that next one.

If I were retired, I think I could buy sell and trade guns in a very high volume without needing an FFL because *my purpose* would not be to make money, but rather to learn about them and review them for others' benefit. I could become a gun expert simply by buying testing carrying (and then eventually selling) all the popular makes and models of guns that are out on the market today. Think of Hickock45 on YouTube (only he gets guns on loan from distributors).

 

[Fatal_Bert]

Y'all read way to much into this ****. It's all about intent. If you're buying guns with the intent to transfer them to someone else then you need an FFL according to the law. If not then carry on. Also don't lie on federal documents.

 

[GAgunLAWbooklet]

So.... suppose I see an SKS that uses AK mags at an estate sale for $150.
I buy it intending to flip it here for $400 and make myself a quick profit.
Is that one transaction going to get me in trouble?
What if I flip 10 such good deals per year? (all different makes and models of firearms, bought from various desperate or ignorant sellers?)

Or 36 annually, an average of one clearly profitable transaction every 10 days?

 

[SirBannedAlot]

Good questions, I wish I knew the answer to.

I just feel like we are at a time where laws are going to change and become more restrictive. Things that flew under the radar or that weren't really looked at before, are getting a spotlight put on them.

Take bump stocks... A clear workaround of the full auto portion of the NFA, by creating a device that was technically different in mechanics, but the same overall result... But then it came on the radar and they put the hammer down. The same will likely happen with pistol braces. We all know that almost nobody building an AR pistol with a brace, is actually building a pistol. They are playing in the grey area, just like the bump stocks did, and making legal SBR's with a workaround. In time, that will go away as well as something happens and people focus on them...

A lot of us are enthusiasts and just like buying and trading, but to the 3/4 of Americans who don't own guns, it looks like we are some gun crazy online community, transferring thousands or tens of thousands of guns back and forth with strangers, with no paperwork and no background checks.

I feel like that can only last for so long in this current climate.

We all oppose universal background checks... but why? Besides the fact that we simply want to keep doing what we are doing and not be told what to do... on what legal or ethical grounds do we base our argument that we should be able to buy and sell guns to whomever we want, without doing a 4473 like any dealer has to do?

If we had to, it would hurt our HOBBY and inconvenience us, but on what legal grounds would we base our defense? We accept a 4473 and NICS check from the dealers that we buy from, so what entitles us to private sales without doing the same?

Constitutionally, we have the right to keep and bear arms, but I don't know that private vs retail sales processes apply there. If it's unconstitutional to require private sales do a 4473 and NICS check, then why wouldn't it be the same for dealers? Why not oppose ALL background checks and forms?

I don't know that the "well, that's just how it has always been" argument is all that strong. You used to be able to say that about Slavery, right?

 

[GAGunguy]

I prefer to carry a gun that I purchased new from a FFL, if I ever have to use it, I don't want the original to be suspect, or a matter of interpretation, or even something an attorney could possibly question.

 

[SirBannedAlot]

I prefer to carry a gun that I purchased new from a FFL, if I ever have to use it, I don't want the original to be suspect, or a matter of interpretation, or even something an attorney could possibly question.

That's an interesting point that I never even considered... It's perfectly legal and nothing wrong with it, but in front of a jury, perception is reality... And when some meth head's family is claiming their "baby boy with 11 prior felonies is an angel and wasn't out to hurt anyone", their lawyer is gonna try to paint you in as negative of a light as possible, and so them bringing up that you "bought your gun online from a stranger so as not to go through a background check" is put in front of a jury... it doesn't make you look good, I would imagine... Despite it being completely legal.