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Another SHTF question!

Please go to a VFW and talk to men who have been shot with 8mm mauser and 7.62x54R. Keyword, talk to them. As in they're still alive.

You're kidding, right? Because the larger calibers do not have a 100% kill ratio you think the 5.56 is MORE effective?! I don't think anyone involved in the selection process of the 5.56 round as our main battle cartridge felt that at all. They recognized it was a compromise so that our troops could carry more ammo and a slightly lighter weapon. It was a bad compromise in my opinion. Since there are lots of people that you can also talk to that have survived a hit from a 5.56 does this mean we should only be issuing 22lr to our troops? That's the direction your argument is going. There is absolutely no statistical evidence or scientific information anywhere that says that the 5.56 is a better man stopper than the 7.62 NATO. Quite the opposite is true. For a more common comparison remember that what we are talking about is a .223 Remington (a varmint round) compared to a .308 Winchester (a very effective big game round).

If the 5.56 is such an effective round, why has there been so much effort and research done to find a better man stopper that will fit the AR15 platform? Remember that the 6.8 was the results of a demand by our special operators that got sick and tired of having to shoot the bad guy over and over before they went down. The 6.8 is just one of many experiments to try and do this. All of them have had questionable results because the AR 15 platform is just to damn small. Unfortunately, there are millions of them in service and we just can't afford to scrap them, but we should.

If you talk to these same men at the VFW and tell them the 5.56 is an effective and lethal battle round the only reason they wouldn't laugh in your face is to be polite. I'm sure ALL of them would have preferred to have been shot by the 5.56 than an 8mm or 7.62x54. Some of them missing limbs would probably just have a nice scar.
 
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@ bear44 - and what impact has all that research made on weapons in the field?

We now have dmr versions of both the ar in 556 and ar version 762's as well as m14 versions issued to Supplement the m4...

The issue in afghanistan was more the effect at longer ranges of the 556. In georgia how many times will you NEED to take a shot beyond 300 meters? And if you do there are capable ar platforms in 556 that will allow that type of engagement out to and beyond 600 meters. Personally if talking shtf, which we are, I am not giving my position away by shooting for a "maybe" at 400+ meters when I can have a "definate" hit closer in...

Having used the 556 in a war zone I can tell you that it is indeed an effective round. Again shot placement trumps size.

Regards, 83rd
 
My answer is simple, BOTH! IMO if you're not familiar with the AR or AK, then get familiar with it because you never know what enemy you'll be facing and therefore what weapon they will be using.
 
Good arguments on both sides. I don't want to be shot with either. Use the one the you are most effective and familiar with. For me, the AR. Just my slowly devalueing .02 worth.
 
You're kidding, right? Because the larger calibers do not have a 100% kill ratio you think the 5.56 is MORE effective?! I don't think anyone involved in the selection process of the 5.56 round as our main battle cartridge felt that at all. They recognized it was a compromise so that our troops could carry more ammo and a slightly lighter weapon. It was a bad compromise in my opinion. Since there are lots of people that you can also talk to that have survived a hit from a 5.56 does this mean we should only be issuing 22lr to our troops? That's the direction your argument is going. There is absolutely no statistical evidence or scientific information anywhere that says that the 5.56 is a better man stopper than the 7.62 NATO. Quite the opposite is true. For a more common comparison remember that what we are talking about is a .223 Remington (a varmint round) compared to a .308 Winchester (a very effective big game round).

If the 5.56 is such an effective round, why has there been so much effort and research done to find a better man stopper that will fit the AR15 platform? Remember that the 6.8 was the results of a demand by our special operators that got sick and tired of having to shoot the bad guy over and over before they went down. The 6.8 is just one of many experiments to try and do this. All of them have had questionable results because the AR 15 platform is just to damn small. Unfortunately, there are millions of them in service and we just can't afford to scrap them, but we should.

If you talk to these same men at the VFW and tell them the 5.56 is an effective and lethal battle round the only reason they wouldn't laugh in your face is to be polite. I'm sure ALL of them would have preferred to have been shot by the 5.56 than an 8mm or 7.62x54. Some of them missing limbs would probably just have a nice scar.

The point I'm trying to get across is there are many many more factors that play a role in ballistics aside from the size and weight of a round. Many earthly things we have no control over. Please see : Fallujah, Vietnam, Sangin, Basra, Beslan, Grozny, Dagestan, Georgia. Then you can tell me 5.56 and 5.45 are "ineffective"
 
83rd, I have to agree with you. The .223 is an effective light round, no round is perfect and they all have pros and cons. Most of the cons of any cartridge are personal opinion, It does not matter to the person what caliber was used to end there life. Shot placement trumps all.
 
Exactly. You can read the book about the battle of Mogadishu and it talks about the Rangers being stunned that their .308's (m60's) not taking down the 120lb somalis. Please don't use the " they were on drugs" excuse. Doesn't matter how much drugs you're on.
 
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