I own a NFA Item and I have a question for fellow owners.

[CQB27]

I have owned a SBR for about 6 years now. I have two friends who own and have owned Maching Guns for about 20 years. None of us have ever been questioned, as in "May I inspect your NFA weapon?", buy any federal officer.

You often here "You waive your 4th Admendment Rights When You Own a NFA Item!". While this is a myth, we are subject to producing our weapons/items upon request of a Federal Agent. I just do not know anyone, and I have never heard about anyone receiving an inspection visit.

Any NFA owners here been visited or know someone who has? I know some ranges require you to produce your paperwork to use their facilities. I am specifically talking an Official Inspection by a Federal Ageny.

 

[ugagrad04]

I have owned a SBR for about 6 years now. I have two friends who own and have owned Maching Guns for about 20 years. None of us have ever been questioned, as in "May I inspect your NFA weapon?", buy any federal officer.

You often here "You waive your 4th Admendment Rights When You Own a NFA Item!". While this is a myth, we are subject to producing our weapons/items upon request of a Federal Agent. I just do not know anyone, and I have never heard about anyone receiving an inspection visit.

Any NFA owners here been visited or know someone who has? I know some ranges require you to produce your paperwork to use their facilities. I am specifically talking an Official Inspection by a Federal Ageny.

The ATF cannot legally visit you just because you own an NFA weapon, unless of course you give them cause, like using them to commit a crime.

The only time an ATF agent can legally visit your home is if you have you FLL 03 Curios&Relics license. Part of having that license, just like a gun store is you can be audited by the ATF who will simply check your bound book to check what you've bought and sold. And even then they have to call you first, and schedule a time to come out to your house, they can't just "stop by" And if you're not comfortable with them coming to your house you can set up an appointment with the local ATF office and bring your bound book for them to check.

 

[No2sc2]

They really don't care unless there was a crime that they suspect you are involved then they will come knocking to borrow sugar.

 

[CQB27]

The ATF cannot legally visit you just because you own an NFA weapon, unless of course you give them cause, like using them to commit a crime.[/B]

The only time an ATF agent can legally visit your home is if you have you FLL 03 Curios&Relics license. Part of having that license, just like a gun store is you can be audited by the ATF who will simply check your bound book to check what you've bought and sold. And even then they have to call you first, and schedule a time to come out to your house, they can't just "stop by" And if you're not comfortable with them coming to your house you can set up an appointment with the local ATF office and bring your bound book for them to check.

All NFA paper work and as far as the ATF is concerned, weapons, are subject to inspection. The following is copied fron the "NFA FAQ" on another web site", see the last part in bold.


NFA WEAPONS AND THE 4TH AMENDMENT

As to surrendering your 4th amendment (search and seizure) rights, this is definitely true when one gets a Federal Firearms License. The law allows the ATF to inspect your records and inventory once every 12 months without any cause, and at any point during the course of a bona fide criminal investigation (18 USC sec. 923(g)). They may inspect without warning during business hours. The only modification of the above pertains to the C&R FFL (type 03) where ATF must schedule the inspection, (C&R FFL holders do not have business hours) and they must have the inspection at their office nearest the C&R FFL holders premises, if the holder so requests. ATF may look around the licensed premises for other weapons not on your records. This means they take the position that if your licensed premises are your home they may search it, as part of the annual compliance inspection. The constitutionality of the warrantless "administrative search" of licensees provided for in the Gun Control Act has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, see U.S. v. Biswell, 406 U.S. 311 (1972). Biswell was partially overturned by Congress by 1986 changes to the requirements for a warrant under the GCA, but the administrative search provisions remain.

In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the right to enter onto your business premises, during business hours, to verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to that effect is found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is apparently based upon 26 USC sec. 7606:

7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable objects. (a) Entry during day. The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for the purpose of examining said articles or objects. (b) Entry at night. When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may enter them while so open, in the performance of his official duties. (c) Penalties For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see section 7342.

As 26 USC sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to permit entry under section 7606 it is worth a look:

7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination. Any owner of any building or place, or person having the agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for every such refusal, forfeit $500.

They claims this right extends to examining your business records, and firearms. This would only apply to your NFA firearms, although they could presumably examine other guns to make sure they were not NFA firearms, and subject to the law. This is not subject to the controls found in the GCA, noted above, as the legal basis for the search is not found there. So they could claim a right to do this sort of search once a month, or once a week. I am not aware of any current abuse of the authority under this section. While the regulation made by ATF only applies this authority to SOT's, the statute itself is not so limited. At least one court case has suggested this power is available to search an FFL holder who is not an SOT. (U.S. v. Palmer, 435 F.2d 653 (1st Cir. 1970)).

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law seems clear, but practice is a little murky. ATF may only compel you to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to register the weapon. See 26 USC sec. 5841(e). They do not have any right to compel you to show them the weapon. However they apparently (I have no first hand knowledge) take the position that they can compel one to show ATF the weapon upon request, even if the owner has no FFL. As always the Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment. They should also need a warrant to compel a non-FFL holder to show them the weapon, and I would insist upon that, myself.


I am well aware that the ATF has no interst in doing random inspections of individuals that own NFA items. I was inquiring if anyone had ever even heard of the pratice. I have not.

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

All NFA paper work and as far as the ATF is concerned, weapons, are subject to inspection. The following is copied fron the "NFA FAQ" on another web site", see the last part in bold.


NFA WEAPONS AND THE 4TH AMENDMENT

As to surrendering your 4th amendment (search and seizure) rights, this is definitely true when one gets a Federal Firearms License. The law allows the ATF to inspect your records and inventory once every 12 months without any cause, and at any point during the course of a bona fide criminal investigation (18 USC sec. 923(g)). They may inspect without warning during business hours. The only modification of the above pertains to the C&R FFL (type 03) where ATF must schedule the inspection, (C&R FFL holders do not have business hours) and they must have the inspection at their office nearest the C&R FFL holders premises, if the holder so requests. ATF may look around the licensed premises for other weapons not on your records. This means they take the position that if your licensed premises are your home they may search it, as part of the annual compliance inspection. The constitutionality of the warrantless "administrative search" of licensees provided for in the Gun Control Act has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, see U.S. v. Biswell, 406 U.S. 311 (1972). Biswell was partially overturned by Congress by 1986 changes to the requirements for a warrant under the GCA, but the administrative search provisions remain.

In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the right to enter onto your business premises, during business hours, to verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to that effect is found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is apparently based upon 26 USC sec. 7606:

7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable objects. (a) Entry during day. The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for the purpose of examining said articles or objects. (b) Entry at night. When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may enter them while so open, in the performance of his official duties. (c) Penalties For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see section 7342.

As 26 USC sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to permit entry under section 7606 it is worth a look:

7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination. Any owner of any building or place, or person having the agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for every such refusal, forfeit $500.

They claims this right extends to examining your business records, and firearms. This would only apply to your NFA firearms, although they could presumably examine other guns to make sure they were not NFA firearms, and subject to the law. This is not subject to the controls found in the GCA, noted above, as the legal basis for the search is not found there. So they could claim a right to do this sort of search once a month, or once a week. I am not aware of any current abuse of the authority under this section. While the regulation made by ATF only applies this authority to SOT's, the statute itself is not so limited. At least one court case has suggested this power is available to search an FFL holder who is not an SOT. (U.S. v. Palmer, 435 F.2d 653 (1st Cir. 1970)).

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law seems clear, but practice is a little murky. ATF may only compel you to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to register the weapon. See 26 USC sec. 5841(e). They do not have any right to compel you to show them the weapon. However they apparently (I have no first hand knowledge) take the position that they can compel one to show ATF the weapon upon request, even if the owner has no FFL. As always the Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment. They should also need a warrant to compel a non-FFL holder to show them the weapon, and I would insist upon that, myself.


I am well aware that the ATF has no interst in doing random inspections of individuals that own NFA items. I was inquiring if anyone had ever even heard of the pratice. I have not.

A lot of good information here!! I've heard several people talk about forgoing your 4th amendment rights with Tittle II NFA items but didn't know where to point them for proof of that not being the case.

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

Bottom line, NO you do not forgo your 4th amendment rights when you buy an NFA item. IF they knock on your door, ask for a warrant. If you are at the range, ask to see a badge, then politely show them the paperwork. Trust me, the ATF has much more to keep them busy than harassing NFA owners. If they are showing up at NFA owners' houses guns drawn, we have bigger problems.

The majority of that FAQ is for SOT's and FFL's. We do forgo some rights ON OUR BUSINESS PREMISES. Which is why my "home based" FFL is not at my home, but at my office.

 

[CQB27]

Bottom line, NO you do not forgo your 4th amendment rights when you buy an NFA item. IF they knock on your door, ask for a warrant. If you are at the range, ask to see a badge, then politely show them the paperwork. Trust me, the ATF has much more to keep them busy than harassing NFA owners. If they are showing up at NFA owners' houses guns drawn, we have bigger problems.

The majority of that FAQ is for SOT's and FFL's. We do forgo some rights ON OUR BUSINESS PREMISES. Which is why my "home based" FFL is not at my home, but at my office.

While I have never experienced it or have any knowledge of it occuring, All NFA owners are required to submit the registration paperwork upon request to an ATF Agent and a warrant is not required. The below is straight from the NFA Handbook available on line from the ATF. Chapter 12:

Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm
registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of
registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or
investigator, upon request. Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its
maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing
registration of a firearm to a transferee.

CHAPTER 15. PENALTIES AND SANCTIONS
Section 15.1 NFA.
15.1.1 Criminal. The acts prohibited by the NFA and prosecutable as Federal offenses are listed in 26
U.S.C. 5861(a) through (l). As provided by 26 U.S.C. 5871, any person who commits an offense shall,
upon conviction, be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 10 years or fined. Although the fine
specified in the statute is an amount not exceeding $10,000, an amendment to Federal law provides for a
fine of not more than $250,000 in the case of an individual or $500,000 in the case of an organization.224
15.1.2 Forfeiture. Any firearm involved in any violation of the NFA is subject to seizure and
forfeiture.225

I am not sure refusing to submit your NFA paperwork to "the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or
investigator, upon request" is a violation of 26 U.S.C. 5861(a) through (l), I have not got that far in my research yet.

I am not trying to argue with you. This is simply the most currunt information available on line from the ATF. If you have documentation supporting your stance (and I hope you do as I like your version better ) please post it.

EDIT to add: I cannot find anything in 26 U.S.C. 5861(a) through (l) that addresses refusal to submit to a request for your NFA paperwork to "the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or investigator, upon request, so I am unsure of any penalties or sanctions.

 

[CQB27]

A lot of good information here!! I've heard several people talk about forgoing your 4th amendment rights with Tittle II NFA items but didn't know where to point them for proof of that not being the case.

This web site has a wealth of information, www.nfaoa.org/resources.html

This one deos also, www.ar15.com/content/legal/nfaFAQ.html

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

Just because you are required to show your paperwork to the ATF, that doesn't entitle them to an unlawful search. If they knock at your door, show them the stamp, and tell them if they'd like to see anything else, they need a warrant.

 

[CQB27]

Just because you are required to show your paperwork to the ATF, that doesn't entitle them to an unlawful search. If they knock at your door, show them the stamp, and tell them if they'd like to see anything else, they need a warrant.

I think we are saying the same thing.