Question(s) for Military Personnel

[PapaTokarev]

I went through Paris Island, SC. in the heat of summer this year. We were issued M16-A4s during week 1. Day 1, I believe. Mine was an FN as were most of the others. There were a handful of Colts. For the next 13 weeks, we would spend every waking hour with our rifles which were OUR rifles and no one else's. It was stressed that we were never to surrender our weapons to anyone for any reason. We wore A2 style carry handles until qual week when we re-visited the armorer for ACOGs which we would retain for the duration which included a couple thousand rounds fired between practice, pre-qual and qual, as well as the live-fire exercises on the crucible. All of our rifles took multiple sand baths on the mock-beaches we stormed, and muck I wish I could forget trudging through the swamps on the combat endurance course got all over the internals. The optic was submerged repeatedly... and still worked flawlessly the day I turned in my M16-A4, the serial number of which I will remember for the rest of my natural existence. 10562814. Hah... I spoke to some smaller females at my schoolhouse who were issued M4s. They were all Colt and wore a different Trijicon optic. For as well-used and poorly treated as the rifles we were issued were, they still shot remarkably well. I was top-shot in boot camp, which is something I'm most proud of.

 

[PapaTokarev]

USMC qualifies to 500 yards on static targets, and 100 yards on moving targets, by the way. I remember the course in it's entirety for anyone who wants to give it a shot. I am also happy to provide reduced versions of the targets we use to anyone who doesn't have access to a 500 yard range.

 

[Indirect Fire]

USMC qualifies to 500 yards on static targets, and 100 yards on moving targets, by the way. I remember the course in it's entirety for anyone who wants to give it a shot. I am also happy to provide reduced versions of the targets we use to anyone who doesn't have access to a 500 yard range.

Very cool "prive" (PFC or LCpl by now I would imagine). Shoot me the course if you don't mind, or post it. It was purely the KD course out to 500 when I shot it decades ago. Be interested to see whats changed. Is "" still a "perfect" shoot (ETA 250 was highest score not 300)?


Semper Fi, High Shooter !

 

[Deleted member 20875]

I went through Basic in 2002 they issued us dummy guns. We sighted in out M16's and put some tape on it with out name on it then went back to storage until the firing range.

 

[slick]

Well I went to Basic in Nov 1957 at Ft Jackson. We were issued M1 Garands. Weapons were kept in a rack in the tents. I was in tent city for 9 weeks,wood frame,concrete floor and canvas roof. Pot belly coal stove and 19degrees at the time. We qualified out to 500yds on iron sights.
I went to Advanced Infantry at Ft Dix ,weather down to 0 deg and below. We trained on M1, M1 carbines,BAR,45 pistol and all the old machine guns,air and watercooled plus 3.5 rocket launcher and some other assorted weapons.Had to strip them blindfolded and reassemble the same way.
Finished there and went to the 101st in 58. We trained a lot with the M1. Got out after three yrs for a couple of months andreenlisted. They had me go through Basic again at Benning with the 2nd ID on Sand Hill,this time with M14 rifles. This was 1961
A 122mm rocket sort of gets your attention when it passes over you and a 7.62x39 does seem to snap close to your ear.

 

[PapaTokarev]

Very cool "prive" (PFC or LCpl by now I would imagine). Shoot me the course if you don't mind, or post it. It was purely the KD course out to 500 when I shot it decades ago. Be interested to see whats changed. Is 300 still a "perfect" shoot?


Semper Fi, High Shooter !

For annual qualification purposes, 350 is now perfect. You can acquire 250 points maximum on table 1 and another 100 on table 2. I pulled 242 / 250 on KD to 500 and a perfect 100 on table two which is fast-paced combat style shooting at 25 yards on multiple static targets, and 10 shots taken at 100 yards on 'movers' - slow moving man sized targets for a total of 342 / 350 which was unequaled by any of my DIs who qualified the week before we went - something I paid for dearly on the quarterdeck...

At the school of infantry, we got to run tables 3 and 4 which are comprised of unknown distance shooting to 800 yards and night-fire with night vision monocular. Pretty cool stuff. Also got plenty of time on the M240B and M249 'SAW', as well as the 40MM and M2 .50 cal.

I'm typing up the stages for tables one and two right now. I don't recall the exact course of fire for 3 and 4 as we only ran them once and it was a simple pass or fail that doesn't go towards the rifle badge you wear - marksman (250+), sharpshooter(280+) or expert (305+).

 

[Indirect Fire]

For annual qualification purposes, 350 is now perfect. You can acquire 250 points maximum on table 1 and another 100 on table 2. I pulled 242 / 250 on KD to 500 and a perfect 100 on table two which is fast-paced combat style shooting at 25 yards on multiple static targets, and 10 shots taken at 100 yards on 'movers' - slow moving man sized targets for a total of 342 / 350 which was unequaled by any of my DIs who qualified the week before we went - something I paid for dearly on the quarterdeck...

At the school of infantry, we got to run tables 3 and 4 which are comprised of unknown distance shooting to 800 yards and night-fire with night vision monocular. Pretty cool stuff. Also got plenty of time on the M240B and M249 'SAW', as well as the 40MM and M2 .50 cal.

I'm typing up the stages for tables one and two right now. I don't recall the exact course of fire for 3 and 4 as we only ran them once and it was a simple pass or fail that doesn't go towards the rifle badge you wear - marksman (250+), sharpshooter(280+) or expert (305+).

Great to see the guys getting plenty of trigger time at basic and SOI. Did not used to be that way at all, great marksmanship program at basic but not nearly enough actualy trigger time. I think I put more rounds downrange the week before I showed up at basic than I did at PI and Camp Geiger all in a A1 of course! Appreciate you taking the time to pass that on. Good luck and Godspeed in your time in the Corps.

 

[PapaTokarev]

200 yard line where they will fire 15 rounds in “slow fire” over a time period of 20 minutes. 5 rounds each in the sitting, kneeling and standing position. Then, they will fire 10 rounds of “rapid” fire in one minute, starting in the standing position, then dropping to the deck and assuming the sitting position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 200 yard line – 125 pts.

At the 300 yard line, they will fire 5 rounds in “slow fire” over a 5 minute time period from the sitting position. Then they will fire 10 rounds “rapid fire” in 1 minute – starting in the standing position, but dropping to the deck and assuming the prone position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 300 yard line – 75 points.

The recruits will then move back to the 500 yard line, and here they will fire 10 shots in “slow fire” over a period of 10 minutes from the prone position. Total points possible from the 500 yard line – 50 points.

When they finish this “Table 1” course, the maximum score possible is 250, and they MUST obtain a 190 or above. (If they don't make this minimum score, they will shoot Table I again during “Team Week” – and if they pass at that time they will remain with their platoon. However, if they fail this second chance – they will be dropped from their training platoon and recycled into a following series.)

As top shot, I spent team week at the range with our series' unqualified shooters. PMIs and coaches aren't allowed to provide any input during qualification. Only the shooter's buddy - who sits behind the firing line and keeps a line score of his shots may provide insight. In addition to my own qualification, I sat-in on a few dozen other shooter's runs of table one. Here are the targets we use and the distances we use them at. All positions are unsupported. Optic used is 4X.

http://www.second-amendment.org/misc/USMC-200-yard-slow-25-yards.pdf
http://www.second-amendment.org/misc/USMC-300-yard-rapid-25-yards.pdf
http://www.second-amendment.org/misc/USMC-500-yard-qual-50-yards.pdf

For the 5 rounds fired in the 300 slow fire, use the same target as used for the 200 slow fire at 37.5 yards.

 

[hjblwme]

Boot camp is different for each branch of service. I was in the Marine Corps and we were issued M16-A2's but now I believe they have gone to M16-A3's for boot and either SOI or MCT. M16A4's are standard issued to active and reserve units. Buddy went to the Navy and he said they only touched M9's during basic. In the Marine Corps, we were issued rifles on the 2nd day... well really the first few days your pretty much doing everything with no sleep so it's a big blurr. The rifles stayed with us the entire time until graduation week when you turn all your issued gear in. We touched our rifles everyday...EVERYDAY! DI's would tell us to name our rifles and when cleaning to talk to her in a soft dirty way... i.e. calling her a filthy little *#^%, having so many men touch her over the years stuff like that. We had to recite Marine rifle creed the famous "This is my rifle, their are many like it, but THIS ONE IS MINE!" When I went to SOI I was a damn M249 SAW gunner cause NOONE wants to lug that thing around all day out in the field. During SOI and routine training you'd check out your weapon from the armory by serial number on the rifles. Out in the field in training you are responsible for all issued gear you are assigned. Armor? No your a rifleman in the Marines, you are the operator, radioman, cook, driver, machine gunner, and every other MOS except for specific jobs like EOD,chemical, POGS, all in one were not the pathetic soldiers that need a complete MOS to fill ranks and everyone be a E-4 specialists. YES! You can buy your own equipment like attachments(depends on your unit some do some don't) for your weapon system or random things you can attach on your combat load. GOVERNMENT ISSUE STUFF SUCKS!!! Commercial things like from blackhawk or what not actually make far superior products than these crappy government contract companies that mass produce products for cheap. No. You do not have a CHOICE on what you are issued... Ofcourse EVERYONE wants the M4 because it's light as *&%& and going on force marches for more than 5 miles, you want to make yourself as light as possible. NOONE wants a M249 SAW strapped to their body with a spare barrel! Our standard ammo is the 5.56 in rifles and .308 for our sniper rifle systems, and the crappy 9mm in combat enviroment. For all the 9mm fanatics talking about shot placement. M9's and our issued bayonets are the last resort in any engagement. Army probably issues out the M9's but in the Corps. only officers and select SNCO are issued M9's. Army went with the M4 platform while the Marines opted for the M16A4's. Army trains at max range of 300 m with optics, Marines train at 500 m out with iron sights. Army gets state of the art range equipment, Marines still use pit crews at range having Marines pull up and down targets for shooters. As far as Shotguns in Marines, only Marines trained as an assault man use a shotgun for breaching purposes. Ammo is taken out by a Marines who have hazmat certification. Ammo can be checked out but CANNOT be checked in, meaning if you take out 20,000 rds and only use 10,000, you better start using your speed loader and switching to burst cause you'll be shooting another 10,000 rds. Comes from the ammo depot by ammo techs. No smoking or electronics used while near the building warehouse. While training we usually got around 800 rds a Marine a day. Usually it will be a day range and a night range for 5 days for each evolution. So you can imagine how much ammo is check out for entire company. Marines standard issue mags are 7 for each Marine, but as stated you can buy your own **** and get like P-mags and throw the crappy GI mags back in your locker. No problem thanks for supporting out troops hopefully this opened your eyes on some things.

Wow the memories you bring back. Aside from some MOS specific changes you are spot on.

But I'm a POG so I would know only about The Wing. In the wing as aircrew we were issued three platforms if enlisted and two for the O's. An enlisted aircrew man had his rifle, and a shotgun (mossy), and all aircrew had an M9. It was always fun come range time because you would basically spend two weeks on the range. The only benefit was when you were able to get your pistol and rifle in the same week. Because you didn't have to pull pit duty.

 

[Deleted member 38641]

From my experiance in the Army, early 2000s

in basic, you get your rifle when you start ranges. and only get it on range days or any training with it. including ruck marches. we were taught to use mechanical zero, so we didnt have one assigned to us. it was grab and go lol. ammo only at the range.

when you get to your unit, you will have one long rifle assigned to you, depending on your squad position. includes M4/M249/M240. you only get a pistol if your a MP/officer/senior NCOs mainly. ammo only at the range. some units have 12g shotguns (mainly mossbugs) that usually go the squad leader. some infantry units have "designated marksmen" that get a M14 (most i saw where in Sage EBR stocks) or a m24 (rem700) bolt actions as well. if the units got money and big enough to have actual snipers attached, you might see a barrett. if your not infantry, all your gonna see is a M4, M249, and maybe a M9 (pistol).

weapons are property of the unit you are in, you only get them issued if you are going to a range/training with them. you get to clean them if you have time after training, otherwise you get to come in on a saturday/sunday to clean them.

you will only ever have ammo for your rifle/pistol if you are deployed/at the range.

pretty much no on modding your own weapon. unless your SF or above, how you get it is how it will be. includes Pmags. some regular units do have them though, but you cannot purchase your own for use overseas, they have to be unit issued. some look the other way on pmags, some dont. including you cannot put on your own scope/furniture.

all weapons are stored in the units armory when not in use. and unlesss its for training/cleaning/dployment they dont come out. ever.

ammo is offsite from a actual manufacture. they do have a brass sorting facilitiy where they collect all the used brass form ranges. mostly green tip, but i did aquire some 5.56 hollow points while overseas.

when you deploy you get whats called a "battle load" of ammo. i only had a m249 so i know for sure (it was anyway lol) the load on it is 600rds. M4 is 240rds (8mags) i think? and the 240 i think is 600rds, maybe 400 though.... when you go to the range, you get how much you need to do the required shooting lol. however, as long as you make friends with the unit you are replacing before they leave, you can easily double or triple your load out lol.


i think i touched on everything lol

Very well done and thank you. As a Retired Master Sergeant, I started the Army in 1979 and the process was pretty much the same except, I started with an M16 A1. I was in the army when they transitioned from the 1911 to the Beretta M9. Everyone hated them then and from what I hear, they hate them today.

You must qualify twice annually at an approved military range with your unit assigned weapon. True, you will not be issued a pistol as a sidearm unless your job requires it, or you are a Commissioned Officer, or Sr. Non Commissioned Officer. I got my first Pistol Issued to me as a Sergeant First Class and had to qualify with it twice a year after that.

While Stationed here in the United States, you may keep your personal owned weapons in your home if you live outside of the barracks, with command approval. Only if they know about the weapon. In Georgia. Active Duty Military are allowed to carry concealed without a Georgia Weapons License but, most get one anyway to avoid hassle. If you are fortunate enough to be stationed overseas, your personal owned weapons must be kept in the Unit Arms Room.

I watched a soldier try to purchase a weapon in the PX the other day and he needed a copy of his commander assumption of command order and permission from the same to purchase it. but, he can go off post anywhere and get one without all of that but then you have to pay Taxes for that privilege.

OK, I got off topic a bit, Thanks

Good Job Military Redneck.