Best AK for the Bucks?

[Bear44]

The .44 mag. and the .40 cal are excellent hand gun calibers but would not be real good for assault type weapons. The .223 is now allowed for deer hunting but I know of no one that uses them because it is just too lite.

I have argued against using the 223 for deer hunting also, but there are quite a few people that do with great success. Many of whom are on these forums. My reasoning for arguing against it is because humane kills require excellent shot placement at short to moderate ranges. However, when shooting at an enemy, a humane kill is of no concern.

The 223/5.56 is far from an optimum round for war fighting, but it's not nearly as bad now as it used to be for self defense because we do not have the bullet restrictions the military does. I would personally prefer to see the 6.5 Grendel become the normal military cartridge in the AR platform, but I always use current military rounds in my primary defensive weapons and the Grendel is still more of a boutique specialty cartridge than anything else. That leaves the 5.56, the 7.62x39 and the 7.62x51.

7.62x51 platforms and ammo are typically heavier than I want as a primary, though I have owned AR10s and am now thinking of getting a M1a.
7.62x39 is a short range round and I want the capability to engage an enemy at greater range than it offers.

That leaves the 5.56.

 

[grit51]

It's not effective in close and the further out it gets the less effective it becomes. There are things that effect a round at distance including wind and brush. It just does not have enough weight to be effective at long range.

You use the weapon you want and I will use the one I want, I don't plan on assaulting anyone but if I have to defend myself I want either a shotgun or an assault type weapon with a much heavier round than a 55 grains.

 

[Bear44]

It's not effective in close and the further out it gets the less effective it becomes. There are things that effect a round at distance including wind and brush. It just does not have enough weight to be effective at long range.

You use the weapon you want and I will use the one I want, I don't plan on assaulting anyone but if I have to defend myself I want either a shotgun or an assault type weapon with a much heavier round than a 55 grains.

That's what I'm talking about. You're a bit behind the times. The majority of 5.56 ammo for self defense today does use a heavier round than 55 grain.

You say it's not effective at close range. Really? You think a hit from a 44 mag would be ineffective? The 5.56 offers the same or better energy and typically deeper penetration. If you believe a 44 would work in CQB, then it stands to reason that you would think the 5.56 would, too. As for long range work, wind does not effect bullet flight that much at the ranges we are talking about and an experienced shooter has little problem compensating for it. Though the energy of the bullet will have dropped off substantially, at long range an immediately incapacitating hit is not nearly as important as it is up close. If I make a good hit at 300 yards, the man is out of the fight even if he manages to stay on his feet for 10 seconds. And that beats the hell out of not being able to hit him at all. A 5.56 is more susceptible to deflection than a 7.62, but not by very much. A 7.62 has no magic ability to plow through cover unencumbered. It will deflect, too.

Again, if we are talking about a comparison of the 7.62x39 and the 5.56, what the 5.56 gives up in energy is not nearly enough to compensate for what the 7.62 gives up in effective range. When the enemy is at long range, a man with a 5.56 is effectively operational. A man with a 7.62x39 is not.

But like you said, to each their own.

 

[BIGLEW]

I never was much of an AK fan, but then I got extremely lucky and traded into an Arsenal. I really like this AK, very smooth shooter, nice trigger, and just feels solid. I only got $625 into it, so I think I did EXTREMELY well. I just ordered 10 mags and got a couple of hundred rounds also.

 

[grit51]

Aw, again you are showing me that you are not a shooter. Okay, 62 gr. so all rifles have and optimal that which they will shoot accurate. Most will not shoot this 62 gr. accurate in fact most like the 50 gr. better. Even the bulked up 77 gr. is a far cry from the 124 gr in 7.62x39.

.44 magnum is a poor excuse for a rifle round and your not accounting for the bulk of the 240 gr. round. this is a real bad comparison. If you can't do any better than this you have lost the argument.

At 300 yards you are hoping for ideal weather conditions to hit a target, any breeze at all and you are way off. The energy is just not there at 300 yards, This is not a sniper caliber, more suitable to ground hogs.

Personally I'm not going to be running around in a 300 yard field, I'll stay in the cover of the woods. I'll continue to put my money on the AK

 

[grit51]

When the U.S. military first adopted the M16 rifle in the 1960s, the M193 cartridge and its 55-grain bullet was standard. The earliest issued variations of Eugene Stoner’s “Black Rifle” came with relatively slow rifling twist rates of 1-in-14 inches. Shortly thereafter, nearly all M16s and M16A1s were being issued with faster 1-in-12-inch twist barrels.




Let’s take a look at the commonly-available twist rates used in-conjunction with the 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington chambering.

1-in-14 Inches
You’re unlikely to find a 1-in-14 barrel on any AR-15 produced in recent years, but they do exist and you may encounter them on a bolt action rifle on occasion. This is the least-versatile twist rate you’ll see in the 5.56x45mm/.223 Remington chambering. Although 1-in-14 barrels can stabilize 55-grain bullets used by the original M16, it’s really better suited for bullets up to 50- and 52-grains—most of which fall into the varmint and target category. If achieving maximum velocity with light bullets is your goal, this may fit for your needs—Winchester’s 45-grain JHP load is a screamer at 3,600 feet per second.

1-in-12 Inches
This is the slowest twist still seen in large numbers on AR-15s and other .223s. Though far better than the 1-in-14 twist, it is still unsuited for some of the premium loads developed over the past decade. Conventional wisdom suggests this twist rate is perfect for bullets in the 55-to 60-grain range, though most will stabilize the common 62-grain FMJ rounds. If you hunt prairie dogs or coyotes with lightweight .223 bullets, this twist rate will do fine for your needs. Doubletap’s 55-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip load generates 3,300 feet per second of velocity out of a 22-inch barrel, and will easily stabilize in this twist rate.

 

[grit51]

Beautiful little gun, California round.

5.56 and 7.62x39 VS 2 55 Gallon steel barrels, sealed ...
▶ 1:54

Apr 23, 2011 - Uploaded by dawgtorsa
THIS WAS NOT A BALLISTICS TEST OR COMPARISON, JUST FOR FUN!!!) I took 2 55 gallon barrels, filled them ...

 

[biker_bill]

Yes two different guns for two different purposes.

One day I had a chance to shoot a cinder block wall at about 80 yards with both guns.
The AK chopped the wall up pretty fast, the AR not so much, well it actually took awhile with the AR.
I still hate to admit that because I'm a Marine that cut my teeth on rifle shooting with an M-16.

I didn't want to like the AK at all, after all, it was my enemies weapon.

When it came time to clean them both it took me 10 minutes to clean the AK and I could have spent an hour on cleaning just the BCG. So by the end of the day I had to admit our enemies rifle had some value.

Depending on the use, there's always a "right" gun for the job. It's all trade offs one way or the other.

 

[Bear44]

Aw, again you are showing me that you are not a shooter. Okay, 62 gr. so all rifles have and optimal that which they will shoot accurate. Most will not shoot this 62 gr. accurate in fact most like the 50 gr. better. Even the bulked up 77 gr. is a far cry from the 124 gr in 7.62x39.

.44 magnum is a poor excuse for a rifle round and your not accounting for the bulk of the 240 gr. round. this is a real bad comparison. If you can't do any better than this you have lost the argument.

At 300 yards you are hoping for ideal weather conditions to hit a target, any breeze at all and you are way off. The energy is just not there at 300 yards, This is not a sniper caliber, more suitable to ground hogs.

Personally I'm not going to be running around in a 300 yard field, I'll stay in the cover of the woods. I'll continue to put my money on the AK

You keep accusing me of not being a shooter. Your post here and the one after shows that you really don't know that much about the subject. The US military has not issued rifles with a 1-12 twist or slower for many decades. In fact, the most common twist rate even in the civilian market for ARs is 1-9. I believe the twist rate of the typical military M4 is 1-7. As for "perfect" environmental conditions for a 300 yard shot. LMAO!!!! A typical 69 grain 5.56 bullet will drift only about 8 inches in a 10mph full value crosswind at that range. That's a torso hit with almost no hold off at all. It's a head shot for anyone that has any clue what they're doing. Marines use the 5.56 and iron sights to qualify on targets out to 500 yards on a regular basis and they don't give a rat's ass about waiting for perfect atmospheric conditions to do it.

As for the "bulk" of a 240gr 44mag bullet not being accounted for, what two elements do you think are used to determine energy? Speed and weight is the answer. What the 5.56 does not have in weight it makes up for in speed and the energy dump from a 5.56 into a target in which the bullet does not pass through is greater than that of a 44 mag. That's a simple fact. I agree that a 44 mag is not a good rifle round, because it has the same problem as the AK, low muzzle velocity. However, I brought up the 44 when you were claiming that the 5.56 is not powerful enough at close range.

As for not needing to take shots at longer distances. It's nice that your enemy will always play so nicely by your rules. Personally, if I know my enemy is armed with AK47s, I'm going to try real hard to set up where they will have to expose themselves to some degree at 200 plus yards to accomplish their objective. That will give me and my little inadequate AR a massive advantage that they can't duplicate. But hey, whatever works for you.

 

[grit51]

Yeah Bill, It's kind of like not wanting to like a John Deere lawn tractor that has industrial kawasaki engine because Kawasaki built airplanes for the Japanese in WWII isn't it?