You did not answer my question. What if NO ONE paid for the firearm in question?
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Buying a pistol for my grandson
- Thread starter alex4922
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You did not answer my question. What if NO ONE paid for the firearm in question?
As the buyer, just don't be ignorant of the law. Don't come in saying that you're buying a gun for your child that can't legally buy it.
Who's paying for the gun? Who is the purchaser? It's pretty straightforward. If someone other than the person that filled out the paperwork attempts to purchase the firearm, that's a straw sale. Legality may not be evident until after the paperwork is complete and a purchase is attempted.
The act of filling out the 4473 and paying for the gun is part of the legal transaction. Question (a) does not who ask who has bought the firearm, but who the buyer is. Are you the actual buyer of the gun listed on the form? You ARE NOT the buyer if you are ACQUIRING it on behalf of someone else. The verbiage is all present tense, not past tense.
I agree with that, the child may consider the gun theirs and be the only one that shoots it but the parent still have primary responsibility until the kid is of legal age to take full possession. The ATF makes things so clear and cares about our safety.
Nope. There are many ways in which this can legally occur.
Just a few ways in which a person can come into a gun store, and complete a 4473 to "pick up" a firearm:
1. Parent lives several states away, and they die. Their firearms are shipped to an FFL in another state, to be picked up and possessed by a surviving descendant. The receiving FFL does free transfers. That descendant has to complete a 4473, but they haven't paid for anything. Are they the "purchaser"?
2. A church has a Wild Game Dinner once a year. No admittance is charged, and there is a free raffle for freely donated prizes. A church member wins a shotgun, to be redeemed at the LGS that donated the shotgun, totally free of cost. That church member has to complete a 4473, but they haven't paid for anything. Are they the "purchaser"?
3. A guy retires from a company after 30 years. The company, which is headquartered on the other side of the country, gifts the retiree with a firearm. They order it online, pay for it, and have it shipped to the FFL of the retiree's choice. That retiree has to complete a 4473, but they haven't paid for anything. Are they the "purchaser", or is the "purchaser" the company that paid for the gun?
4. Guy is Top Salesman for his company. He is awarded a firearm. The firearm is ordered by his company, which is headquartered on the other side of the country. The company orders it online, pays for it, and has it shipped to the FFL of the winner's choice. The winner has to complete a 4473, but hasn't paid for anything. Are they the "purchaser", or is the "purchaser" the company that paid for the gun?
5. LGS is doing a 10 Year Anniversary Party. The have a free raffle, and give away a firearm. A lucky customer wins it. The winner has to complete a 4473, but hasn't paid for anything. Are they the "purchaser"?
Why did I use these examples? I used these as examples because they are ones that I have dealt with professionally as an FFL.
Good post, GSSF won Glock another great example. There is no transfer fee, register rings up 0.00 with 4473 and the item exits our inventory. As an employee when things get complicated I ask the owner how to handle it since they are on the hook.
The act of filling out the 4473 and paying for the gun is part of the legal transaction. Question (a) does not who ask who has bought the firearm, but who the buyer is. Are you the actual buyer of the gun listed on the form? You ARE NOT the buyer if you are ACQUIRING it on behalf of someone else. The verbiage is all present tense, not past tense.
Your examples: 1-5
You MAY NOT sell or otherwise dispose of a firearm to a person other than the actual buyer or transferee. A person has given you reason to believe he or she is not the actual buyer or transferee, and the transaction must be stopped, if the person answers:
“No” to the question on ATF Form 4473 (5300.9) that asks:
- “Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)?”
Let's muddy the waters a little. Again, these are ones that I have dealt with or witnessed.
1. The LGS gun shop donates a Ruger 10/22, at cost, for a free raffle to be held at the local church. The LGS normally sells that particular 10/22 for $299.99, but they only charged the church the "dealer cost" of $252. A church member wins it. The winner has to complete a 4473, but hasn't paid for anything. The church paid for the 10/22, with a check made out from the account of "First Baptist Church of Pataskala". Who is the purchaser? If you say it's the church, and they have to fill out the 4473, then WHO at the church fills it out?
2. Two buddies walk into the LGS. Guy sees a firearm that he has wanted for a long time. He doesn't have enough cash on him to purchase the firearm, and the shop charges an extra fee for credit card transactions. His buddy loans him the cash to purchase the firearm, with the understanding that he will be paid back as soon as feasible. Who is the purchaser?
3. Two buddies walk into the LGS. Guy sees a firearm that he has wanted for a long time. He doesn't have enough cash on him to purchase the firearm. His buddy has an AmEx, uses it whenever he can because he earns points. Tells his buddy he'll put the firearm on his AmEx, and his buddy can pay the card. Who is the purchaser; the guy whose name is on the card, or the guy that paid the bill?
1. The LGS gun shop donates a Ruger 10/22, at cost, for a free raffle to be held at the local church. The LGS normally sells that particular 10/22 for $299.99, but they only charged the church the "dealer cost" of $252. A church member wins it. The winner has to complete a 4473, but hasn't paid for anything. The church paid for the 10/22, with a check made out from the account of "First Baptist Church of Pataskala". Who is the purchaser? If you say it's the church, and they have to fill out the 4473, then WHO at the church fills it out?
2. Two buddies walk into the LGS. Guy sees a firearm that he has wanted for a long time. He doesn't have enough cash on him to purchase the firearm, and the shop charges an extra fee for credit card transactions. His buddy loans him the cash to purchase the firearm, with the understanding that he will be paid back as soon as feasible. Who is the purchaser?
3. Two buddies walk into the LGS. Guy sees a firearm that he has wanted for a long time. He doesn't have enough cash on him to purchase the firearm. His buddy has an AmEx, uses it whenever he can because he earns points. Tells his buddy he'll put the firearm on his AmEx, and his buddy can pay the card. Who is the purchaser; the guy whose name is on the card, or the guy that paid the bill?
Grandmother lives in Seattle. Her Grandson lives in Tallahassee. She buys him a firearm for his 21st birthday, from Gunbroker. She has it shipped to the FFL of his choice in Tallahassee. Can he legally complete the 4473 as the purchaser/transferee?
