That's how I's roll, slack dem baggy jeans down to da flo, "wife beater" on top, gold chain round ma neck, gold grill in and my "nine" tucked in behind a big, shiny belt buckle. Thens I walk roun with 1 limp leg and my strong hand flashin ma sign so's everyone knows what crew I rolls wit.
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Dress code for open carry
- Thread starter jsquared
- Start date
That's how I's roll, slack dem baggy jeans down to da flo, "wife beater" on top, gold chain round ma neck, gold grill in and my "nine" tucked in behind a big, shiny belt buckle. Thens I walk roun with 1 limp leg and my strong hand flashin ma sign so's everyone knows what crew I rolls wit.
Thats not true for all people. Maybe with how you like to dress, but you probably don't dress like I do.
That's true. However, I believe it's reasonable to alter the way you dress to carry concealed. You would not go into a theater to watch a movie wearing nothing but swim trunks. Carrying a weapon does put some responsibility on you. So, do it responsibly.
Another thing that I think has been overlooked in this thread is what makes concealed carry so effective. The bad guys DON"T know who has a gun. This is why violent crime rates drop almost overnight in states that pass right to carry laws. This is shown statistically in every state that has passed the law. It is also one of the strongest arguments for passing the law.
As for tactical advantage; are there really people that think letting everyone know you have a weapon is an advantage?! Give me a break! Think about this. If a bank robber sees a guard they are not going to go rob a different bank, they are just going to take out the guard first. On the other hand. If the guard is in plain clothes they may be able to get into a tactically superior position before the robber knows they are armed. It also means that the guard can try to get into position to take out the robber without putting bystanders in his line of fire. If your weapon is concealed, you choose when to draw it. If your weapon is in the open you will have to deploy it in response to the bad guy and will have little or no choice when you do.
I also have a second motivation to carry. Sure, I carry to protect myself, but I also carry to protect others around me. I will not stand by while an innocent person is victimized just because I am not in danger. If a bad guy is deterred from robbing a store because he sees someone with a gun and then goes down the street and kills someone in another store, I feel that the person openly carrying in the first store may have been able to stop that killing if they had there weapon concealed and been able to engage the killer when he tried to rob the first store. Yes, this means that you put yourself in danger when, maybe, you could have avoided it (or, perhaps, just died first if openly carrying). But, damn it, them that can, do! If you carry you are saying "I CAN"! People that carry should be guardians of the public safety. If this were a known common motivation of people that carry, the crime rates would plunge. The criminal would not just need to consider whether the intended victim was armed, but also if anyone that saw the crime might be armed.
The problem with this innitiative is a lot of the public is against vigilantes (unless they are the victim). I also want to protect those around me if I'm in a position to do so, but making that a reason to carry is a double edged sword in political correctness.
QUOTE=Bear44;89571]That's true. However, I believe it's reasonable to alter the way you dress to carry concealed. You would not go into a theater to watch a movie wearing nothing but swim trunks. Carrying a weapon does put some responsibility on you. So, do it responsibly.
Another thing that I think has been overlooked in this thread is what makes concealed carry so effective. The bad guys DON"T know who has a gun. This is why violent crime rates drop almost overnight in states that pass right to carry laws. This is shown statistically in every state that has passed the law. It is also one of the strongest arguments for passing the law.
As for tactical advantage; are there really people that think letting everyone know you have a weapon is an advantage?! Give me a break! Think about this. If a bank robber sees a guard they are not going to go rob a different bank, they are just going to take out the guard first. On the other hand. If the guard is in plain clothes they may be able to get into a tactically superior position before the robber knows they are armed. It also means that the guard can try to get into position to take out the robber without putting bystanders in his line of fire. If your weapon is concealed, you choose when to draw it. If your weapon is in the open you will have to deploy it in response to the bad guy and will have little or no choice when you do.
I also have a second motivation to carry. Sure, I carry to protect myself, but I also carry to protect others around me. I will not stand by while an innocent person is victimized just because I am not in danger. If a bad guy is deterred from robbing a store because he sees someone with a gun and then goes down the street and kills someone in another store, I feel that the person openly carrying in the first store may have been able to stop that killing if they had there weapon concealed and been able to engage the killer when he tried to rob the first store. Yes, this means that you put yourself in danger when, maybe, you could have avoided it (or, perhaps, just died first if openly carrying). But, damn it, them that can, do! If you carry you are saying "I CAN"! People that carry should be guardians of the public safety. If this were a known common motivation of people that carry, the crime rates would plunge. The criminal would not just need to consider whether the intended victim was armed, but also if anyone that saw the crime might be armed.[/QUOTE]
I read over your post a couple of times because I wasn't sure what I was reading. I have come to the conclusion that you arm arguing against your own logic here. First off, you state state that the bad guys don't know who is armed is the reason that crime rates drop in States that have carry provisions, but could it actually be that bad guys know that there is more people that is opt to be carrying in these states? An armed society is a polite society. Again, there are no stats to prove that concealed carry is more effective than open carry.
As for your tactical advantage commits, I would venture to say that the uniform of a security office is more likely to draw fire than that of an armed citizen wetting the mop.
Your last paragraph makes me think that you are more likely to get into a hooting situation than someone openly carrying.
Luke
I read over your post a couple of times because I wasn't sure what I was reading. I have come to the conclusion that you arm arguing against your own logic here. First off, you state state that the bad guys don't know who is armed is the reason that crime rates drop in States that have carry provisions, but could it actually be that bad guys know that there is more people that is opt to be carrying in these states? An armed society is a polite society. Again, there are no stats to prove that concealed carry is more effective than open carry.
As for your tactical advantage commits, I would venture to say that the uniform of a security office is more likely to draw fire than that of an armed citizen wetting the mop.
Your last paragraph makes me think that you are more likely to get into a hooting situation than someone openly carrying.
Luke[/QUOTE]
The statement about states that pass carry laws having crime rates drop is in comparison to states that don't have any carry laws. Your statement is true, the criminals are more cautious because more people are carrying AND they don't know who has a weapon if they are concealed.
Of course a uniformed guard will draw more fire because they are more obvious and a person openly carrying is more obvious than a person carrying concealed.
I don't know whether I am more likely to get into a shooting situation than someone that openly carries, but I do know that if I do, I'll be more likely to come out of it alive, again, because I will have more control over when the criminal realizes that I am a threat. Thus, I will have a tactical advantage.
In response to your previous post. A vigilante is someone that takes it upon themselves to seek out and punish criminals, not someone that defends others from them when the criminal has initiated a violent episode. This is the way the law sees it also. A vigilante is a criminal in their own right. What we are talking about is legal use of deadly force. Read the statute for justifiable homicide. It permits the defense of others. By the way, if I was worried about being politically correct I would not be carrying at all.
I don't like to oc and if I did oc I'm not gonna dress up unless I had planned on it anyway. I've done it a few times and all you get are wierd looks from everyone that you pass. I'd rather people not know I have a gun on me plus I have a comp-tac to carry my glock 19 in and I've never been uncomfortable while cc. The only time I will oc now is when I'm going outside to do some shooting on our land.
The statement about states that pass carry laws having crime rates drop is in comparison to states that don't have any carry laws. Your statement is true, the criminals are more cautious because more people are carrying AND they don't know who has a weapon if they are concealed.
Of course a uniformed guard will draw more fire because they are more obvious and a person openly carrying is more obvious than a person carrying concealed.
I don't know whether I am more likely to get into a shooting situation than someone that openly carries, but I do know that if I do, I'll be more likely to come out of it alive, again, because I will have more control over when the criminal realizes that I am a threat. Thus, I will have a tactical advantage.
In response to your previous post. A vigilante is someone that takes it upon themselves to seek out and punish criminals, not someone that defends others from them when the criminal has initiated a violent episode. This is the way the law sees it also. A vigilante is a criminal in their own right. What we are talking about is legal use of deadly force. Read the statute for justifiable homicide. It permits the defense of others. By the way, if I was worried about being politically correct I would not be carrying at all.[/QUOTE]
First, I want to apologize for the errors in my previous post, obviously I was more exhausted that I thought I was. It's not uncommon for my mind to out run my fingers, but usually I don't post such sloppiness. Now, I will address your last post as best as I can, but not necessarily in the order that you commented.
Taking the last paragraph first. I never called you a vigilante, that was someone else. If I would have called you anything, it would have been a "wanna-be-hero" but i didn't do that because I have respect for anyone that would enter harm's way to protect someone when they don't have to. The problem with coming to someone's aide is that if you don't know the situation, you may be getting yourself into hot water. Let us say that you are leaving a convenience store late one night after a bread and lotto ticket run. As you move toward your car, you hear the sounds of a struggle coming from a darken corner of the store and move to investigate. What you find is a one or maybe two guys (let your imagination paint you a picture) wrestling a young lady to the ground. She is calling for help and possibly even yelling rape. You move to her aide and draw your weapon in her defense (not even firing a shot) and find that you have hindered a LEO or BEA in his duties. Once you draw that weapon, you have committed Aggravated Assault, and while you can't be charged with obstructing a Bail Enforcement Officer, Aggravated Assault will be enough. Plus you could be civilly liable for the loss of that Jumper. Everything is not always as it appears.
Another thing you may want to consider is what if the person you are trying to save is hurt, and feels that your actions contributed to it. You may be civilly liable for that as well. Some people, especially the anti-gun types are appreciative when they get hurt through your efforts.
Secondly, I know the Law. I've been a Certified NRA Instructor for over twenty years as well as in LE and Military Instructor during periods of my life. I am quite familiar with the laws concerning use of force and I while I know it make keep you from being criminally prosecuted, it will not prevent you from being civilly tried.
Simply concealing your weapon does not give you a tactical advantage. The method in which you conceal it and your choice of weapon can put you at a disadvantage. Let's say that you conceal a J-frame on your ankle as your primary carry, you are now at a disadvantage if you are head on to your aggressor. Or, maybe you carry a LCR in your front of back pants pocket, do you think that aggressor is going to let you get that weapon out of your pocket? I don't know what you carry or how, but your blanket statements are very misleading to the young (beginnners) carriers.
Open carry does not have to be a fashion where it draws attention to you, although it does draw some. As stated above, I've carried for many years, both ways and I don't think that it draws negative attention to me. Occasionally, it is noticed and I am asked about it, sometimes it even gets me new students. A robbers running in to rob a convenience store is not rushing in and scanning everyone's waist in the store. Research shows that their attention is on the target, the store clerk. They want money and to get out. You may stand out a bit if you are carrying a full size hand gun in a bank, but again, what is your chances of being in that position and what is the possibility that you will be able to deploy your concealed weapon with enough speed to come out on top? Even when I am concealing, it's a full size 1911 or Tactical XD and it is covered by an unbuttoned collared shirt, or BDU Blouse.
Yes, with CC it may be a guessing game for them, but how many times have you heard of criminals running into a police station and shooting up the place? I know a guy that owns a Huddle House and he prefers to have a dining room full of OCing patrons. What better security system is there?
You make many assumptions about your concealed carry, and I hope you never have to find out if you are right or not. I have in the course of my life been involved in several shooting and in that have taken a total of seven rounds(three in one incident). The fact of the matter is, you don't know how you will come out. There are many factors that play a part in your performance. It's different when the rounds are coming at you, most people can't even remember how many times they fired their weapon in self defense.
I'm not knocking you, I'm just saying that you have an opinion and a right to carry as you choose too, but you don't have the right to say that it's the best way or the only way. So far it has worked for you, and for that I am glad but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best way, it could mean that you are just lucky. In any event, enjoy your right and carry the way you feel comfortable, but don't say that it is the only way.
Oh, I don't know where that politically correct comment came from. I am probably the least of the PC guys.
Luke
First, I want to apologize for the errors in my previous post, obviously I was more exhausted that I thought I was. It's not uncommon for my mind to out run my fingers, but usually I don't post such sloppiness. Now, I will address your last post as best as I can, but not necessarily in the order that you commented.
Taking the last paragraph first. I never called you a vigilante, that was someone else. If I would have called you anything, it would have been a "wanna-be-hero" but i didn't do that because I have respect for anyone that would enter harm's way to protect someone when they don't have to. The problem with coming to someone's aide is that if you don't know the situation, you may be getting yourself into hot water. Let us say that you are leaving a convenience store late one night after a bread and lotto ticket run. As you move toward your car, you hear the sounds of a struggle coming from a darken corner of the store and move to investigate. What you find is a one or maybe two guys (let your imagination paint you a picture) wrestling a young lady to the ground. She is calling for help and possibly even yelling rape. You move to her aide and draw your weapon in her defense (not even firing a shot) and find that you have hindered a LEO or BEA in his duties. Once you draw that weapon, you have committed Aggravated Assault, and while you can't be charged with obstructing a Bail Enforcement Officer, Aggravated Assault will be enough. Plus you could be civilly liable for the loss of that Jumper. Everything is not always as it appears.
Another thing you may want to consider is what if the person you are trying to save is hurt, and feels that your actions contributed to it. You may be civilly liable for that as well. Some people, especially the anti-gun types are appreciative when they get hurt through your efforts.
Secondly, I know the Law. I've been a Certified NRA Instructor for over twenty years as well as in LE and Military Instructor during periods of my life. I am quite familiar with the laws concerning use of force and I while I know it make keep you from being criminally prosecuted, it will not prevent you from being civilly tried.
Simply concealing your weapon does not give you a tactical advantage. The method in which you conceal it and your choice of weapon can put you at a disadvantage. Let's say that you conceal a J-frame on your ankle as your primary carry, you are now at a disadvantage if you are head on to your aggressor. Or, maybe you carry a LCR in your front of back pants pocket, do you think that aggressor is going to let you get that weapon out of your pocket? I don't know what you carry or how, but your blanket statements are very misleading to the young (beginnners) carriers.
Open carry does not have to be a fashion where it draws attention to you, although it does draw some. As stated above, I've carried for many years, both ways and I don't think that it draws negative attention to me. Occasionally, it is noticed and I am asked about it, sometimes it even gets me new students. A robbers running in to rob a convenience store is not rushing in and scanning everyone's waist in the store. Research shows that their attention is on the target, the store clerk. They want money and to get out. You may stand out a bit if you are carrying a full size hand gun in a bank, but again, what is your chances of being in that position and what is the possibility that you will be able to deploy your concealed weapon with enough speed to come out on top? Even when I am concealing, it's a full size 1911 or Tactical XD and it is covered by an unbuttoned collared shirt, or BDU Blouse.
Yes, with CC it may be a guessing game for them, but how many times have you heard of criminals running into a police station and shooting up the place? I know a guy that owns a Huddle House and he prefers to have a dining room full of OCing patrons. What better security system is there?
You make many assumptions about your concealed carry, and I hope you never have to find out if you are right or not. I have in the course of my life been involved in several shooting and in that have taken a total of seven rounds(three in one incident). The fact of the matter is, you don't know how you will come out. There are many factors that play a part in your performance. It's different when the rounds are coming at you, most people can't even remember how many times they fired their weapon in self defense.
I'm not knocking you, I'm just saying that you have an opinion and a right to carry as you choose too, but you don't have the right to say that it's the best way or the only way. So far it has worked for you, and for that I am glad but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best way, it could mean that you are just lucky. In any event, enjoy your right and carry the way you feel comfortable, but don't say that it is the only way.
Oh, I don't know where that politically correct comment came from. I am probably the least of the PC guys.
Luke[/QUOTE]
Sorry Luke, you are correct. It was cwbyinjeep that made the statement about vigilantism and being PC. To be fair, he did not call me a vigilantly. He said that others may view it that way.
As to the tactical advantage of CC. If you are not trained to deploy the weapon quickly or you are carrying it in a way that severely limits how quickly you can draw it you do loose tactical advantage. However, that is a different consideration than whether the criminal can see the weapon or not. Some common sense and practice will mitigate any problems with deployment. The only compromise as to the weapon that I carry so it can be easily concealed is that it is compact in size. Otherwise, it is a 45 ACP in 1911 type. I also shoot it very well. I'm not a fan of pocket pistols as a primary or deep concealment either. I wear it on the right hip in a secure, but very fast holster. If you are not already familiar with the Bianchi Snaplok, check it out. The Serpa is also a fast holster, but I don't care for them because I have read reports that by placing pressure on the index finger during the draw there have been incidents of ADs even with experienced shooters. I conceal it with either a jacket or, in warm weather, a vest. I also weight the right pocket so a flick of the wrist gets it completely out of the way. I still believe that CC gives you more opportunity to choose when the bad guy knows they have a problem and that does give tactical advantage.
As for getting involved in an incident. Take the same situation that you use as an example. The two men apparently attacking a woman. Could YOU see that and walk away? Somehow I doubt you could. If you are armed, are you going to walk up and ask what is going on or are you going to draw your weapon and walk up and ask what is going on? If it were me and there was any question about what was happening, I would place my had on the weapon without actually drawing it. I also don't think that there would be much trouble criminally even if I did draw the weapon. Since they added "reasonable cause to believe" to the statute, it has helped in most cases of honest mistakes. Unfortunately, you are completely correct about civil action. We live in a litigious society and it is the risk you are going to take. I have accepted that. If I'm willing to risk my life, well.......
As far as being a "wana-be hero". Thank you for not actually calling me that. I have carried for over 30 years and have only drawn my weapon twice as a civilian. Once prevented my wife and myself from being mugged and the second was precautionary when a burglar rapidly vacated our home as we arrived home. He never even saw the weapon. I have never felt the need to draw it in any other civilian circumstance. So I am definitely not LOOKING for trouble. My feelings about the duty to protect others is based in the fact that I can not morally avoid a dangerous situation when another person is in trouble and I may have the ability to stop what is happening to them.
I also agree with your statement about not knowing how you will react until you find yourself in the situation. I will even take it a step further and say that even when you have been in a bad situation and reacted well, that does not guarantee that you will react the same way if it happens again. If someone has responded properly in one situation it is much more likely they will respond well again, however, each incident is different and you never know for sure. Please note that I have only explained that I have had no need to use deadly force as a civilian. I have experienced very high stress and deadly situations and believe I have responded well and appropriately. Appropriately not only means firing my weapon when I should, but also not firing it when I should not. Those were decisions made with a FULL adrenalin load. Upon reflection, I do not regret any of those decisions. You are right about one thing though. I never have taken a round.
I will completely disagree with your statement that I "don't have the right to say that it's the best way". I absolutely DO have that right! And you have the right to disagree with it or not even listen to it.
Taking the last paragraph first. I never called you a vigilante, that was someone else. If I would have called you anything, it would have been a "wanna-be-hero" but i didn't do that because I have respect for anyone that would enter harm's way to protect someone when they don't have to. The problem with coming to someone's aide is that if you don't know the situation, you may be getting yourself into hot water. Let us say that you are leaving a convenience store late one night after a bread and lotto ticket run. As you move toward your car, you hear the sounds of a struggle coming from a darken corner of the store and move to investigate. What you find is a one or maybe two guys (let your imagination paint you a picture) wrestling a young lady to the ground. She is calling for help and possibly even yelling rape. You move to her aide and draw your weapon in her defense (not even firing a shot) and find that you have hindered a LEO or BEA in his duties. Once you draw that weapon, you have committed Aggravated Assault, and while you can't be charged with obstructing a Bail Enforcement Officer, Aggravated Assault will be enough. Plus you could be civilly liable for the loss of that Jumper. Everything is not always as it appears.
Another thing you may want to consider is what if the person you are trying to save is hurt, and feels that your actions contributed to it. You may be civilly liable for that as well. Some people, especially the anti-gun types are appreciative when they get hurt through your efforts.
Secondly, I know the Law. I've been a Certified NRA Instructor for over twenty years as well as in LE and Military Instructor during periods of my life. I am quite familiar with the laws concerning use of force and I while I know it make keep you from being criminally prosecuted, it will not prevent you from being civilly tried.
Simply concealing your weapon does not give you a tactical advantage. The method in which you conceal it and your choice of weapon can put you at a disadvantage. Let's say that you conceal a J-frame on your ankle as your primary carry, you are now at a disadvantage if you are head on to your aggressor. Or, maybe you carry a LCR in your front of back pants pocket, do you think that aggressor is going to let you get that weapon out of your pocket? I don't know what you carry or how, but your blanket statements are very misleading to the young (beginnners) carriers.
Open carry does not have to be a fashion where it draws attention to you, although it does draw some. As stated above, I've carried for many years, both ways and I don't think that it draws negative attention to me. Occasionally, it is noticed and I am asked about it, sometimes it even gets me new students. A robbers running in to rob a convenience store is not rushing in and scanning everyone's waist in the store. Research shows that their attention is on the target, the store clerk. They want money and to get out. You may stand out a bit if you are carrying a full size hand gun in a bank, but again, what is your chances of being in that position and what is the possibility that you will be able to deploy your concealed weapon with enough speed to come out on top? Even when I am concealing, it's a full size 1911 or Tactical XD and it is covered by an unbuttoned collared shirt, or BDU Blouse.
Yes, with CC it may be a guessing game for them, but how many times have you heard of criminals running into a police station and shooting up the place? I know a guy that owns a Huddle House and he prefers to have a dining room full of OCing patrons. What better security system is there?
You make many assumptions about your concealed carry, and I hope you never have to find out if you are right or not. I have in the course of my life been involved in several shooting and in that have taken a total of seven rounds(three in one incident). The fact of the matter is, you don't know how you will come out. There are many factors that play a part in your performance. It's different when the rounds are coming at you, most people can't even remember how many times they fired their weapon in self defense.
I'm not knocking you, I'm just saying that you have an opinion and a right to carry as you choose too, but you don't have the right to say that it's the best way or the only way. So far it has worked for you, and for that I am glad but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best way, it could mean that you are just lucky. In any event, enjoy your right and carry the way you feel comfortable, but don't say that it is the only way.
Oh, I don't know where that politically correct comment came from. I am probably the least of the PC guys.
Luke[/QUOTE]
Sorry Luke, you are correct. It was cwbyinjeep that made the statement about vigilantism and being PC. To be fair, he did not call me a vigilantly. He said that others may view it that way.
As to the tactical advantage of CC. If you are not trained to deploy the weapon quickly or you are carrying it in a way that severely limits how quickly you can draw it you do loose tactical advantage. However, that is a different consideration than whether the criminal can see the weapon or not. Some common sense and practice will mitigate any problems with deployment. The only compromise as to the weapon that I carry so it can be easily concealed is that it is compact in size. Otherwise, it is a 45 ACP in 1911 type. I also shoot it very well. I'm not a fan of pocket pistols as a primary or deep concealment either. I wear it on the right hip in a secure, but very fast holster. If you are not already familiar with the Bianchi Snaplok, check it out. The Serpa is also a fast holster, but I don't care for them because I have read reports that by placing pressure on the index finger during the draw there have been incidents of ADs even with experienced shooters. I conceal it with either a jacket or, in warm weather, a vest. I also weight the right pocket so a flick of the wrist gets it completely out of the way. I still believe that CC gives you more opportunity to choose when the bad guy knows they have a problem and that does give tactical advantage.
As for getting involved in an incident. Take the same situation that you use as an example. The two men apparently attacking a woman. Could YOU see that and walk away? Somehow I doubt you could. If you are armed, are you going to walk up and ask what is going on or are you going to draw your weapon and walk up and ask what is going on? If it were me and there was any question about what was happening, I would place my had on the weapon without actually drawing it. I also don't think that there would be much trouble criminally even if I did draw the weapon. Since they added "reasonable cause to believe" to the statute, it has helped in most cases of honest mistakes. Unfortunately, you are completely correct about civil action. We live in a litigious society and it is the risk you are going to take. I have accepted that. If I'm willing to risk my life, well.......
As far as being a "wana-be hero". Thank you for not actually calling me that. I have carried for over 30 years and have only drawn my weapon twice as a civilian. Once prevented my wife and myself from being mugged and the second was precautionary when a burglar rapidly vacated our home as we arrived home. He never even saw the weapon. I have never felt the need to draw it in any other civilian circumstance. So I am definitely not LOOKING for trouble. My feelings about the duty to protect others is based in the fact that I can not morally avoid a dangerous situation when another person is in trouble and I may have the ability to stop what is happening to them.
I also agree with your statement about not knowing how you will react until you find yourself in the situation. I will even take it a step further and say that even when you have been in a bad situation and reacted well, that does not guarantee that you will react the same way if it happens again. If someone has responded properly in one situation it is much more likely they will respond well again, however, each incident is different and you never know for sure. Please note that I have only explained that I have had no need to use deadly force as a civilian. I have experienced very high stress and deadly situations and believe I have responded well and appropriately. Appropriately not only means firing my weapon when I should, but also not firing it when I should not. Those were decisions made with a FULL adrenalin load. Upon reflection, I do not regret any of those decisions. You are right about one thing though. I never have taken a round.
I will completely disagree with your statement that I "don't have the right to say that it's the best way". I absolutely DO have that right! And you have the right to disagree with it or not even listen to it.
The first part of the previous post is from Luke, not me. I had to delete some of the beginning of it because it was to long and would not post. I inadvertently made it look like it was coming from me.
