And the FNP-45 Tac is used by me to slay paper with malicious intent 
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Joint Combat Pistol program, are we the real winners?
- Thread starter jsquared
- Start date
Thanks, I keep forgetting about the 9 grain improvement. The +P velocity helps if it hits bone, otherwise it punches a small hole and professionals in the trenches find that they are required to put a few more rounds down range center mass to take the man out of the fight. Here is a link you can say it is embellished but it's really true. This writer knows his stuff as he has put his time in the trenches but here in the States. I respect most of what he has to say and in this he says is true to life. http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html
Also at 100 yards with a .45 ACP aim at center of the head/chin and the bullet drop will be down around center mass. A .230 grain .45 will knock anyone flat on their azz. A 9mm whatever grain will not do that with the regularity of a .45, both rounds being FMJ.
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Really it just knocks them over just like that? Physics being what they are then the person behind that beast of a .45 would be knocked on their ass too when the gun went off? For a round to even start to knock someone on their ass
there would have to be a transfer of energy taking place. Since the .45 ACP 230gr FMJ and the 9mm 124gr NATO FMJ do not expand and both over penetrate making a hole in the bad guy as it goes in one side and comes out the other I don't see where that energy transfer is happening. Do you? I don't think you really read that article you linked as well. Had you done so you would have noticed a few things. First the article was really talking about the 1911 and really only discussed the .45 ACP because if you are talking about the gun you pretty much have to discuss the ammo. Ayoob also states in the article that modern 9mm ammo is for defense is "perfectly adequate". This is going to make your head explode but I will quote that section of the article for you to re-read.
I read though that article twice and I didn't read anything about the .45 knocking anyone one their ass. I also didn't see where the .45 FMJ was the end all be all of rounds. I have said it before both the 9mm and .45 ACP are good rounds. In FMJ they are both lacking and really all they are going to do is punch a hole in a bad guy. One hole is going to be just slightly bigger in diameter then the other but because of over penetration chances are your bullet is going in and out. No expansion, little bleeding and very little effectiveness. Your shot placement has to be money for the shot to be effective and with a CT shot it doesn't matter if the bullet is a 9mm or .45 really it is going to get the job done. As long as you are wreaking a vital organ that .98'' diameter difference isn't going to mean much. This knocking people on their ass, blowing their back out, tearing limbs off, spinning them around stuff is just gun shop horse****. FMJ in either load lacks major effectiveness.
I have been reading and hearing the great 9mm vs 45 debate for decades now my take on it has always been the same they are both pretty good rounds. They both have strengths and weaknesses. When it comes to FMJ ammo in a pistol both rounds, the 9mm and the .45 come up way short of their potential. I want our war fighters to have the best. If it were up to me I would tell NATO to pound sand and they would have both 9mm and .45 in the JHP to maximize their effectiveness and utilize their full potential. To me this is one of those issues where one is truly not better then the other. Make of that what you want.
Edit The 9mm ammo that Ayoob alludes to in his article isn't all that hard to find or come by. The 127gr +P+ JHP SXT is about halfway down the page.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-hollow-point-ammo
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Really it just knocks them over just like that? Physics being what they are then the person behind that beast of a .45 would be knocked on their ass too when the gun went off? For a round to even start to knock someone on their ass
I don't think you really read that article you linked as well. Had you done so you would have noticed a few things. First the article was really talking about the 1911 and really only discussed the .45 ACP because if you are talking about the gun you pretty much have to discuss the ammo. Ayoob also states in the article that modern 9mm ammo is for defense is "perfectly adequate". This is going to make your head explode but I will quote that section of the article for you to re-read.
I read though that article twice and I didn't read anything about the .45 knocking anyone one their ass. I also didn't see where the .45 FMJ was the end all be all of rounds. I have said it before both the 9mm and .45 ACP are good rounds. In FMJ they are both lacking and really all they are going to do is punch a hole in a bad guy. One hole is going to be just slightly bigger in diameter then the other but because of over penetration chances are your bullet is going in and out. No expansion, little bleeding and very little effectiveness. Your shot placement has to be money for the shot to be effective and with a CT shot it doesn't matter if the bullet is a 9mm or .45 really it is going to get the job done. As long as you are wreaking a vital organ that .98'' diameter difference isn't going to mean much. This knocking people on their ass, blowing their back out, tearing limbs off, spinning them around stuff is just gun shop horse****. FMJ in either load lacks major effectiveness.
I have been reading and hearing the great 9mm vs 45 debate for decades now my take on it has always been the same they are both pretty good rounds. They both have strengths and weaknesses. When it comes to FMJ ammo in a pistol both rounds, the 9mm and the .45 come up way short of their potential. I want our war fighters to have the best. If it were up to me I would tell NATO to pound sand and they would have both 9mm and .45 in the JHP to maximize their effectiveness and utilize their full potential. To me this is one of those issues where one is truly not better then the other. Make of that what you want.
Edit The 9mm ammo that Ayoob alludes to in his article isn't all that hard to find or come by. The 127gr +P+ JHP SXT is about halfway down the page.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-hollow-point-ammo
You are correct sir a .45 ACP will not knock a man flat back on his butt, even at powder burn distances. Only a hit the central nervous system will come close (brain/spinal cord). It’s more like crumpling like a sack of taters in a pile of fail. I had 5 or 6 fingers of my 100 proof bourbon or more when I replied and was exaggerating, so pardon me. Even a rifle round won’t knock a man flat back on his rear end but from time of impact to incapacitation the duration of time will be less all else being equal. In general even exceptionally lethal rounds as we all well know will not typically make up for poor shot placement. Although a .50 caliber BMG comes real darn close but we are not supposed to use the full auto version on ground troops, only on equipment and if the troops are in the equipment, it sucks to be them. The .50 caliber BMG sniper rifle is a sight behold in action in regards to its lethality on ground troops.
The point of the link was to reflect a small moment. I realize it is an older article so take it for what’s worth and in account. Engineers and designers can come up with the next best thing that on paper looks awesome but in actual practice fall short of expectations. For a fighting gun it’s combat and when you switched from rifle to pistol it’s typically due to the poo hitting the fan with the enemy within the wire, so to speak-talking distance. Combat soldiers quickly find out what works and what doesn’t when the rubber hits the tarmac or the poo in the fan. When compared and scrutinized in actual combat, the military .45 ACP is superior to military 9mm. 9mm-Yes but it kills too, yes but you carry more ammo, yes but it’s what the rest of NATO use. Screw that I want what works best within given restrictions. If given a choice of 9mm FMJ or .45 FMJ military pistols at arms-length fighting, I would grab the .45 ACP and move out. I’m not alone in this thought as most of those who specialize in combat warfare or experianced combat professionals who have the ability to choose, they choose the .45 over all other pistols.
We switched to 9mm to be more “compatible”, and be more uniform with NATO issued ammo. It’s cheaper to make, it’s European and it’s more humane to be shot with. Mas even suggested in the link, that perhaps it was to entice the Italians in allowing us to enact our political agenda. Now that would never happen, would it? I’m not downplaying the 9mm. My concealed carry sidearm is a single stack 9mm but you will not find FMJ in it unless it’s going through the paces on paper or steel targets. I’m confident in it being an effective sidearm with the chosen ammo I carry. No it is not as effective as a good .45 hollow-point/frangible projectile but it is darn close enough and my nine serves its purpose in my day to day life. It is the smallest round I would carry for a primary defensive pistol.
So until our governing laws of warfare change we will be stuck with a FMJ military pistol round for the troops in mass. Please make mine a .45 sir. It looks like we have a lot of .45 ACP choices now from reading this thread. That’s a very good thing.
-Sober for several hours now-
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More choices is always a good thing. Going from basically two .45 combat pistols in the 80s (1911 & Sig P220), to the ones listed here is a very good thing.
This is not true. Another myth furthered by the internet.
The myth is perhaps it's a "law". The units I was with that had mounted .50 BMG's it was just often the ROE dictated by the command element. Its use is more for destroying vehicles, shooting through barriers and such. The divisions I spent time in during deployment would often mention this to the .50 gunner, but if that's the only weapon he has and his or other lives were at stake then he of course could light them up, he didn't break a law just violated an ROE and rightly so. It's just politics.
I don't know nothing about this program or why which service decided to go with what gun...all I know is that the picture of the P220 makes me feel funny in my pants...
