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- Thread starter Leatherhead
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Leatherhead we have met before (bg38), I just want to add some insight into this since I'm a traffic cop from you know where. ALL traffic violations in Georgia are a misdemeanor crimes and are punishable by up to year in jail and up to $1000 fine, so in Georgia a traffic violation stop is considered a non custodial arrest (Miranda warning does not apply). So the officer can walk up to you put you into handcuffs, perform a terry frisk of your person for safety and put you into the back of his car. Then he can write you a ticket and release you on your way... A traffic ticket in Georgia is considered a non custodial arrest until the officer signs released on copy of charges with a signature of the defendant. Don't sign ticket ... Go to jail to post bond on misdemeanor crime of whatever the stop was for. Now cops don't do this unless they see or smell something out of place and they feel uneasy. (If you are placed into in handcuffs Miranda then applies).
On the subject of disarming a person we need to look at Terry vs Ohio. A reasonable officer through his training and experience believes a crime MAY be occurring can detain, frisk, and remove any weapons on a person for officer safety. Terry vs. Ohio is not witnessing a crime but actions of someone makes the officer believe are crime has, may, or had occurred. This is also called reasonable suspicion. Reasonable Suspicion is way less then probable cause which is committing a violation in the officers presence. Now other states are different and traffic charges are civil issues or penal code violations and are treated as a detention for a code violations or infraction. The scope of power is more limited or may be more limited in other states. Georgia is very harsh in their handling of traffic law. Also under OCGA 17-4-23 case law, any peace officer in a marked vehicle can perform a traffic stop in any jurisdiction for any traffic violation and issue a citation or arrest by issuing a copy of charges for that venue. The officer can call another officer from the jurisdiction they are in and get a ticket book from them and start writing away. Peace officers in Georgia are NOT limited by there employing agency's jurisdiction only by the jurisdiction and/or venue where the violation has occurred in. The officer has the same power of arrest for traffic violations the same as Georgia State Patrol... Per Georgia law and POST. Just to keep people from blowing by a cop (who knows case law), because they think he's not in his jurisdiction.
.
This court has held that two statutes, OCGA 40-13-30 and 17-4-23 (a), also authorize police officers to arrest persons for traffic offenses in other jurisdictions. State v. Gehris, 242 Ga. App. 384, 386 (528 SE2d 300) (2000) (OCGA 17-4-23 (a)); Edge v. State, 226 Ga. App. 559, 562 (2) (487 SE2d 117) (1997) (OCGA 17-4-23); Hastings, supra, 211 Ga. App. at 874 (OCGA 40-13-30); City of Winterville v. Strickland, 127 Ga. App. 716, 718 (2) (194 SE2d 623) (1972) (predecessor to OCGA 40-13-30).
On a traffic stop in Georgia you can be disarmed and by force if necessary....if the officer feels uneasy. A example would be let's say you stop a car for a tail light being out on a dark road with backup 10 minutes away. You walk up to the car and something does not feel right you look down and see a bullet sitting in the center console of the vehicle at that point for officer safety you can now do what is called a terry frisk of the occupants, and a terry frisk of the car for officer safety because you now have reasonable suspicion that leads you to think that a person is armed. Now when I say terry frisk of a car I mean an officer may check all unlocked areas within lunging distance of all passengers. Now this is not a search it is a frisk for weapons only and the scope must be proper. This is not a 4th amendment violation under Terry vs. Ohio. Now let's change it up a bit and go to plain smell, instead of plain sight. Officer walks up to car and smells dope, same thing but a SEARCH of the occupants and the vehicles locked containers can be performed for drugs and other fruits of the crime. Now let's add a gun to the mix... Well now the lone officer has a car stopped and the person is armed. Well he can detain you, take your weapon, terry frisk you and your car for more weapons. Then when he feels safe, put you back into your car write you a ticket, disassemble your gun, put all the parts in a bag, hand it back to you and tell you to not put it back together until you are far way from him. OK let's try this one on for size. Officer stops a car for speeding or expired tag. As the offender stops the car he starts moving around a lot and makes a motion to reach under the seat, again officer removes said violator, terry frisks him and his car for his safety and puts violator back into his car and is issues a ticket.
People need to read some law before they go out spouting some things they heard on you tube, that may be from a sovereign citizen type who thinks all police are unconstitutional and traffic laws don't apply to their TRAVELING. The SCOTUS has said over and over that police can disarm you for their safety if the stop is legal and is backed up by Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause. Walking down a road with a gun is not a crime so therefore the police have no rights to detain you and if they did then it is a 4th amendment issue. But remember the courts have also ruled that even though the stop would have been a violation of rights, they still go by what the officer knew and what he can articulate up to the point of the stop. Let's say said officer has a few 911 calls from people saying a guy is walking around armed. Then some NUT BALL calls and give his name and number, and said said weapon holder has pointed the gun at people. Now things have changed. Officer has a complainant who identified himself and said the person committed a crime. The level has just entered the realm of Terry Vs. Ohio. Officer see's gun guy matching description armed with a gun. Now this where it can go south. Mr. Gun dude is Mr. 2A to the max. Cop walks up and says don't move and gun dude starts spouting off all kinds of case law. Officer tells Mr. Gun dude to put his hands on head and gets a mouthful from Mr. Gun. Now we have obstruction and the person is armed..... This could be bad and Mr. Gun gets tazed or shot. Then after all is figured out... And it is found out the complainant lied about the gun being pulled out and pointed at people and Mr. Gun dude, Sues police... Court finds that information officer had at time of encounter would lead a reasonable officer to believe that a crime was being committed, case on officer thrown out and Mr. Complainant gets sued instead. That's why we all need to be careful when dealing with law enforcement, they may have information (bad, or good), that matches what they see as a description, that gives them the right to detain, disarm, and question you to dispel their concern for illegal activity.
Now I am a big time PRO gun rights advocate and I would love to see everyone carry if they could and it would stop a lot of crimes and save many lives. But I don't want to see anyone hurt over this issue. What most 2A are preaching about don't give up your gun is over being stopped for no reason other then them being armed. Well we should not stop people for being armed and I do not, I just walk by and thank them for helping keep crime at bay. Now officers without much experience will receive a 911 call from dispatch about a person being armed and freak out and haul bootie to the scene like its an armed robbery or something. :banghead: . instead they need to ask the dispatchers some questions about the call and see if a crime really has occurred. A lot of cops think if someone calls 911 its reason to detain everyone and it is not. When I went through the academy in 2000 they never taught us about this, they just drilled into our heads that the public is not your friend and they all dislike what you do, so you will be in control of every situation that you go to. Over and over we heard this. It took a few years of service to finally get into the groove of peoples rights, case law, law, and ethics. I went to one of the Atlanta best para-military training centers. After doing this job for a few years I see some faults in the training we have got and I hope this has changed since 2000. The younger guys that are fresh meat seem to still be very gungho and during their field training need to be reeled back into some common sense. I can say that at the agency level training seems to be staying on par with current issues and events, but that may just be the metro area.
Thanks all, stay safe, and well armed,
Michael
On the subject of disarming a person we need to look at Terry vs Ohio. A reasonable officer through his training and experience believes a crime MAY be occurring can detain, frisk, and remove any weapons on a person for officer safety. Terry vs. Ohio is not witnessing a crime but actions of someone makes the officer believe are crime has, may, or had occurred. This is also called reasonable suspicion. Reasonable Suspicion is way less then probable cause which is committing a violation in the officers presence. Now other states are different and traffic charges are civil issues or penal code violations and are treated as a detention for a code violations or infraction. The scope of power is more limited or may be more limited in other states. Georgia is very harsh in their handling of traffic law. Also under OCGA 17-4-23 case law, any peace officer in a marked vehicle can perform a traffic stop in any jurisdiction for any traffic violation and issue a citation or arrest by issuing a copy of charges for that venue. The officer can call another officer from the jurisdiction they are in and get a ticket book from them and start writing away. Peace officers in Georgia are NOT limited by there employing agency's jurisdiction only by the jurisdiction and/or venue where the violation has occurred in. The officer has the same power of arrest for traffic violations the same as Georgia State Patrol... Per Georgia law and POST. Just to keep people from blowing by a cop (who knows case law), because they think he's not in his jurisdiction.
. This court has held that two statutes, OCGA 40-13-30 and 17-4-23 (a), also authorize police officers to arrest persons for traffic offenses in other jurisdictions. State v. Gehris, 242 Ga. App. 384, 386 (528 SE2d 300) (2000) (OCGA 17-4-23 (a)); Edge v. State, 226 Ga. App. 559, 562 (2) (487 SE2d 117) (1997) (OCGA 17-4-23); Hastings, supra, 211 Ga. App. at 874 (OCGA 40-13-30); City of Winterville v. Strickland, 127 Ga. App. 716, 718 (2) (194 SE2d 623) (1972) (predecessor to OCGA 40-13-30).
On a traffic stop in Georgia you can be disarmed and by force if necessary....if the officer feels uneasy. A example would be let's say you stop a car for a tail light being out on a dark road with backup 10 minutes away. You walk up to the car and something does not feel right you look down and see a bullet sitting in the center console of the vehicle at that point for officer safety you can now do what is called a terry frisk of the occupants, and a terry frisk of the car for officer safety because you now have reasonable suspicion that leads you to think that a person is armed. Now when I say terry frisk of a car I mean an officer may check all unlocked areas within lunging distance of all passengers. Now this is not a search it is a frisk for weapons only and the scope must be proper. This is not a 4th amendment violation under Terry vs. Ohio. Now let's change it up a bit and go to plain smell, instead of plain sight. Officer walks up to car and smells dope, same thing but a SEARCH of the occupants and the vehicles locked containers can be performed for drugs and other fruits of the crime. Now let's add a gun to the mix... Well now the lone officer has a car stopped and the person is armed. Well he can detain you, take your weapon, terry frisk you and your car for more weapons. Then when he feels safe, put you back into your car write you a ticket, disassemble your gun, put all the parts in a bag, hand it back to you and tell you to not put it back together until you are far way from him. OK let's try this one on for size. Officer stops a car for speeding or expired tag. As the offender stops the car he starts moving around a lot and makes a motion to reach under the seat, again officer removes said violator, terry frisks him and his car for his safety and puts violator back into his car and is issues a ticket.
People need to read some law before they go out spouting some things they heard on you tube, that may be from a sovereign citizen type who thinks all police are unconstitutional and traffic laws don't apply to their TRAVELING. The SCOTUS has said over and over that police can disarm you for their safety if the stop is legal and is backed up by Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause. Walking down a road with a gun is not a crime so therefore the police have no rights to detain you and if they did then it is a 4th amendment issue. But remember the courts have also ruled that even though the stop would have been a violation of rights, they still go by what the officer knew and what he can articulate up to the point of the stop. Let's say said officer has a few 911 calls from people saying a guy is walking around armed. Then some NUT BALL calls and give his name and number, and said said weapon holder has pointed the gun at people. Now things have changed. Officer has a complainant who identified himself and said the person committed a crime. The level has just entered the realm of Terry Vs. Ohio. Officer see's gun guy matching description armed with a gun. Now this where it can go south. Mr. Gun dude is Mr. 2A to the max. Cop walks up and says don't move and gun dude starts spouting off all kinds of case law. Officer tells Mr. Gun dude to put his hands on head and gets a mouthful from Mr. Gun. Now we have obstruction and the person is armed..... This could be bad and Mr. Gun gets tazed or shot. Then after all is figured out... And it is found out the complainant lied about the gun being pulled out and pointed at people and Mr. Gun dude, Sues police... Court finds that information officer had at time of encounter would lead a reasonable officer to believe that a crime was being committed, case on officer thrown out and Mr. Complainant gets sued instead. That's why we all need to be careful when dealing with law enforcement, they may have information (bad, or good), that matches what they see as a description, that gives them the right to detain, disarm, and question you to dispel their concern for illegal activity.
Now I am a big time PRO gun rights advocate and I would love to see everyone carry if they could and it would stop a lot of crimes and save many lives. But I don't want to see anyone hurt over this issue. What most 2A are preaching about don't give up your gun is over being stopped for no reason other then them being armed. Well we should not stop people for being armed and I do not, I just walk by and thank them for helping keep crime at bay. Now officers without much experience will receive a 911 call from dispatch about a person being armed and freak out and haul bootie to the scene like its an armed robbery or something. :banghead: . instead they need to ask the dispatchers some questions about the call and see if a crime really has occurred. A lot of cops think if someone calls 911 its reason to detain everyone and it is not. When I went through the academy in 2000 they never taught us about this, they just drilled into our heads that the public is not your friend and they all dislike what you do, so you will be in control of every situation that you go to. Over and over we heard this. It took a few years of service to finally get into the groove of peoples rights, case law, law, and ethics. I went to one of the Atlanta best para-military training centers. After doing this job for a few years I see some faults in the training we have got and I hope this has changed since 2000. The younger guys that are fresh meat seem to still be very gungho and during their field training need to be reeled back into some common sense. I can say that at the agency level training seems to be staying on par with current issues and events, but that may just be the metro area.
Thanks all, stay safe, and well armed,
Michael
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I was going to make some comments, but I think I would've broken the "Reply With Quote" button.
ROFL
