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An AR15 is an AR15 is an AR15 .................................
- Thread starter gh1950
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A Daniel Defense is the say the Porsche of the AR15 realm. It's expensive but well worth the price of admission. The 499 jobs are the Ford Fiesta's of the AR scale. The will get you to where you need to go but you never know if it is going to start again. Go with a Colt in the 900 dollar range. It's like the Cummins diesel. It's just a work horse that will keep going like the energizer bunny. If you have the money do it once and do it right. Lube it real good and put a little bearing grease in the buffer tube to dampen the sproing noise that you will hear if you run it dry. I thought to myself the first time I shot on without the bearing grease. " Oh no this simply just won't do". It's a hell of a racket. I don't want you to have to experience that and make your assessment of the AR's based on that noise. It's just a way of saying what you get for your money. If any of you think a 469 AR will be as reliable as a Colt or a Daniel Defense are kidding yourselves. You get what you pay for. Sure they will work and last for a while but you won't get the accuracy and long term reliability as opposed to a more expensive mid to high end gun. I don't think you will get a chrome lined barrel or hammer forged which will go a long way against wear and corrosion. Correct me if I am wrong but it is these kind of features that will stand the test of time. I pretty much have the same opinion here. I have one shelf gun and it's a early 2000 Bushmaster ( my first AR ) when they were still owned by Cerberus Group before the Freedom Group took over in late 2005. All my others are my builds which some how end up costing me 1,200 with all high end parts. If I settle on things like handguards and aesthetic parts I can get by with a grand. My barrels usually cost around 400-500 bucks. The guy said he had no idea about anything AR. I used the car analogies to give him some perspective about what you get for your money in twenty five words or less. That's a pretty tall order to begin with. So I broke it down simply referring to something he might have a idea about. You guys get way to serious about this crap. PTAC. I hope this is sarcasm. If it is, it's brilliantly funny. If not it's so so sad. LOL Older DPMS guns were really good guns as were Bushmasters. They started out a precise machine shop making parts for military contracts for M16 and 1911 parts. Then they started making MSR;s. They moved and shortly after sold it to Freedom group in 2007. Roughly the same time as when they bought out Bushmaster. Then they started cutting corners for the bottom line and that's when both the Bushmaster and DPMS started to take a nosedive in quality. At one point before 2007 they made the best lowers in the business. If you happen to have a pre-2007 DPMS or Pre-2005 Bushmaster hold on to them tightly. They are very good guns. You are correct. I got a fact wrong. Bushmaster did sell to Cerebus group. However Bushmaster was owned by Dyke I believe before Cerberus got them. I just my fact incorrect. Take a xanax it's just trivia at this point. those look like they have had a few miles on them. I also think they stopped making cast lowers around 1990. They offered both up until that point. The marks on the lower identified the two If it was raised it was cast if it was recessed it was forged. There was a slight price difference of about 25 dollars if I remember correctly. For the money the consumer opted for the forged more often than not and so they quite manufacturing them around 1990. The fact that they were all cast is a wealth of grotesque misinformation. Don't quote me on exact dates. I have slept a few years since then. It's not 25 words but I like it. I said don't quote on the date. Like I said it's been what 20+ years. I just stated the fact the were not all cast. That's exactly what you said before you looked it up. I was just rattling of some of what I remember. I no history buff by no means. I knew they offered other choices I just wasn't aware of the stainless. We both gave some info wrong. It's no big deal. Can we stop the pecker measuring contest now and help out the OP. The whole thread is about what was a good choice for the OP. I got lambasted for using a car analogy. Where I stated the Colt was a work horse. No untruth to that statement. DPMS and Bushmaster did make some decent guns. I just don't want to argue history here. The facts are not beneficial to the OP. I made some incorrect statements and you as well. Lets call it draw and continue from here. Lets just stop here. I just hadn't kept up with my facts. I appreciate you keeping the record correct. I remember doing that. I just couldn't keep an accurate account of the information I was trying to relay. I knew Cerberus was in there somehow I just forgot they sold to Cerberus Group. I will not make the mistake again thanks to you. Appreciate it. The only thing that concerns me there is the feed ramps. The roll pin can be corrected in t 10 seconds. The sticky mag release can be addressed with little effort. If that's all that is wrong then ship it back for the feed ramp problem or step up to a better barrel. Then the gun will be a shooter. No wiggle is a plus but it's not the absolute. You need a properly built rifle with properly machined parts. Given it's a S&W it's very surprising to me that this is allowed to get through. Was it a improperly programed machine or what. That is what disturbs me. Surly to God quality control caught the problem and corrected it. If it is their designed to begin with and works correctly then who are we to say it's incorrect. There is a lot of missing information here. Like I said before the roll pin is nit picking. The mag release could be a bur on the part or something as simple as needing another rotation to keep it from protruding to much when the mag release button is depressed. You can't spend 500 dollars and expect to have a LWRC or Daniel Defense. Make no mistake about it, I have had to correct Daniel Defense parts that where defective straight from them namely a 6.8 Bolt Carrier Group but that's another story. Errors can get by and do more often than we care to think about. I would have to look at the rifle, bring it to the range and put it through it paces and then make an accurate assessment of the rifle as a whole and not just damn the rifle due to a roll pin, a mag release and what I think may be a problem. I am not knocking your expertise I am just saying I would need to fire the rifle before I make the final judgement. This man speaks Gospel. Please abide by these principles. Also a lot of guys speak of staking the castle nut. I use caution when saying that. There are a lot of members on here just dabbling in the works of an AR15. Don't tell them to stake the castle nut and leave it at that. Too many guys might just start hammering on the tightening lugs of the nut. Use a pic to illustrate the proper place to stake the castle nut and give a short instruction on how to do so. You are dealing with a mass of proper builders and need to know exactly where this is done and exactly what tools to use to do it. If you just say stake the castle nut some are going to get a hammer and punch and start pounding the nut. It's a very delicate process and one can totally miss exactly where it should be done. You don't have to go after it like you busting a leaf spring apart. It doesn't take a sledge hammer. It's a punch with a couple of taps will move the backing plate material into the castle nut indentations. Anyone standing on the gun like they are driving in a rail road spike is overkill. You are keeping the castle nut from moving not trying to weld it to the buffer tube. Jez guys you are something else. If you aren't careful the punch will slip and you will have a big scratch all the way down your buffer tube. Staking at gas key and castle nut is two very different. I use a small ballpeen hammer and small punch. There are no clockwise and counter clockwise forces on this part. It's forward rearward forces. The retaining plate is not moving anywhere. Just a small amount of material moved into the cutout of the castle nut will keep it from turning. It takes just a simple tap to produce this. Just because you saw someone on the internet use a 20 inch titanium punch with a sledge hammer doesn't make it right. " Of course everything we see on the internet it gospel". It's not a brute force job. For Christ sake it doesn't take that much force. I say delicate because you need to use some restraint during this process or you punch will move and mar the buffer tube if you hit it to hard. Just a simple tap to move a little material into the recess and it's done. That's all that is needed. It helps is you actually have tools and know how to use them. Not everything requires a BFH. That Colt pic is perfect. It doesn't take much to obtain that little knock. some castle nuts don't have that square cut out and only have a very little nick in the castle nut. Just a little material moved into that nick is all it takes. Like I said before there are not rotational forces at work so it doesn't have to be damn near spot welded to the buffer tube. All you are trying to achieve is keeping the castle nut from working itself all the way loose. I use thread locker and a small stake to sure up the nut. Way to much thought is going into this. Use a punch and a light hammer or whatever you have and move some material into the recess of the castle nut and move on. On some guns I don't even stake the castle nut if I am going to try several different parts on that end of the gun. I like to try different options just to see if there are any better results. Mainly noise or harshness when the guns discharges. So like I said give it a good smooth and accurate punch and move on. If you get too overzealous the punch will bounce off and hit your rifle and make a mess of your finish. That's why I said delicate. Not delicate as in hitting the punch but delicate in holding the punch so it doesn't move and tapping the punch so it does what you are intending to do and not going beyond that and scratching the hell out of your 1,200 dollar build. My builds cost a lot of money so I tend to use words that describe the overall process while protecting the overall finish on my gun. If you are throwing an all PSA piece of sh*t together go ahead and wack the hell out out of it. I won't make a difference anyway the whole gun will only cost 350 bucks when it's all said and done. We are making a mountain out of a mole hole here. When you take off a A2 stock do you see thread locker on the screw attaching the stock to the buffer tube. There is a place for thread locker. I use it when I think I am going to make a change there. Correct me if I am wrong but I think I mentioned this. Everyone is a gunsmith on here and are eager to jump in and add there two cents in and probably have built nothing but a PSA jammomatic. In my 50 years on this great earth I have seen I don't know how many gunsmiths do their thing. Each has their own tip and tricks. We can sit here and argue all day on who is right but just let it go. We are talking about staking a fu*king castle nut. Not setting the head space on a 475 H&H magnum. It's not going to blow up in our face. Stake the ******** nut add a little locker if you want and move the hell on. You people will argue on how monkeys f*ck. Just do it the way you want to and let others do their thing. For Christ sake guys. Do you not have anything else to do. I am trying to build a rifle and I get a jingle because some slack jawed fa*got is trying to make his mark on the thread. Go build something. If you know so much go to your bench and build and be productive and/or shut the hell up. I just added that to get a rise out of some of you. I clicked on ALERTS and all I saw was, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote. LMFAO.
A Daniel Defense is the say the Porsche of the AR15 realm. It's expensive but well worth the price of admission. The 499 jobs are the Ford Fiesta's of the AR scale. The will get you to where you need to go but you never know if it is going to start again. Go with a Colt in the 900 dollar range. It's like the Cummins diesel. It's just a work horse that will keep going like the energizer bunny. If you have the money do it once and do it right. Lube it real good and put a little bearing grease in the buffer tube to dampen the sproing noise that you will hear if you run it dry. I thought to myself the first time I shot on without the bearing grease. " Oh no this simply just won't do". It's a hell of a racket. I don't want you to have to experience that and make your assessment of the AR's based on that noise. It's just a way of saying what you get for your money. If any of you think a 469 AR will be as reliable as a Colt or a Daniel Defense are kidding yourselves. You get what you pay for. Sure they will work and last for a while but you won't get the accuracy and long term reliability as opposed to a more expensive mid to high end gun. I don't think you will get a chrome lined barrel or hammer forged which will go a long way against wear and corrosion. Correct me if I am wrong but it is these kind of features that will stand the test of time. I pretty much have the same opinion here. I have one shelf gun and it's a early 2000 Bushmaster ( my first AR ) when they were still owned by Cerberus Group before the Freedom Group took over in late 2005. All my others are my builds which some how end up costing me 1,200 with all high end parts. If I settle on things like handguards and aesthetic parts I can get by with a grand. My barrels usually cost around 400-500 bucks. The guy said he had no idea about anything AR. I used the car analogies to give him some perspective about what you get for your money in twenty five words or less. That's a pretty tall order to begin with. So I broke it down simply referring to something he might have a idea about. You guys get way to serious about this crap. PTAC. I hope this is sarcasm. If it is, it's brilliantly funny. If not it's so so sad. LOL Older DPMS guns were really good guns as were Bushmasters. They started out a precise machine shop making parts for military contracts for M16 and 1911 parts. Then they started making MSR;s. They moved and shortly after sold it to Freedom group in 2007. Roughly the same time as when they bought out Bushmaster. Then they started cutting corners for the bottom line and that's when both the Bushmaster and DPMS started to take a nosedive in quality. At one point before 2007 they made the best lowers in the business. If you happen to have a pre-2007 DPMS or Pre-2005 Bushmaster hold on to them tightly. They are very good guns. You are correct. I got a fact wrong. Bushmaster did sell to Cerebus group. However Bushmaster was owned by Dyke I believe before Cerberus got them. I just my fact incorrect. Take a xanax it's just trivia at this point. those look like they have had a few miles on them. I also think they stopped making cast lowers around 1990. They offered both up until that point. The marks on the lower identified the two If it was raised it was cast if it was recessed it was forged. There was a slight price difference of about 25 dollars if I remember correctly. For the money the consumer opted for the forged more often than not and so they quite manufacturing them around 1990. The fact that they were all cast is a wealth of grotesque misinformation. Don't quote me on exact dates. I have slept a few years since then. It's not 25 words but I like it. I said don't quote on the date. Like I said it's been what 20+ years. I just stated the fact the were not all cast. That's exactly what you said before you looked it up. I was just rattling of some of what I remember. I no history buff by no means. I knew they offered other choices I just wasn't aware of the stainless. We both gave some info wrong. It's no big deal. Can we stop the pecker measuring contest now and help out the OP. The whole thread is about what was a good choice for the OP. I got lambasted for using a car analogy. Where I stated the Colt was a work horse. No untruth to that statement. DPMS and Bushmaster did make some decent guns. I just don't want to argue history here. The facts are not beneficial to the OP. I made some incorrect statements and you as well. Lets call it draw and continue from here. Lets just stop here. I just hadn't kept up with my facts. I appreciate you keeping the record correct. I remember doing that. I just couldn't keep an accurate account of the information I was trying to relay. I knew Cerberus was in there somehow I just forgot they sold to Cerberus Group. I will not make the mistake again thanks to you. Appreciate it. The only thing that concerns me there is the feed ramps. The roll pin can be corrected in t 10 seconds. The sticky mag release can be addressed with little effort. If that's all that is wrong then ship it back for the feed ramp problem or step up to a better barrel. Then the gun will be a shooter. No wiggle is a plus but it's not the absolute. You need a properly built rifle with properly machined parts. Given it's a S&W it's very surprising to me that this is allowed to get through. Was it a improperly programed machine or what. That is what disturbs me. Surly to God quality control caught the problem and corrected it. If it is their designed to begin with and works correctly then who are we to say it's incorrect. There is a lot of missing information here. Like I said before the roll pin is nit picking. The mag release could be a bur on the part or something as simple as needing another rotation to keep it from protruding to much when the mag release button is depressed. You can't spend 500 dollars and expect to have a LWRC or Daniel Defense. Make no mistake about it, I have had to correct Daniel Defense parts that where defective straight from them namely a 6.8 Bolt Carrier Group but that's another story. Errors can get by and do more often than we care to think about. I would have to look at the rifle, bring it to the range and put it through it paces and then make an accurate assessment of the rifle as a whole and not just damn the rifle due to a roll pin, a mag release and what I think may be a problem. I am not knocking your expertise I am just saying I would need to fire the rifle before I make the final judgement. This man speaks Gospel. Please abide by these principles. Also a lot of guys speak of staking the castle nut. I use caution when saying that. There are a lot of members on here just dabbling in the works of an AR15. Don't tell them to stake the castle nut and leave it at that. Too many guys might just start hammering on the tightening lugs of the nut. Use a pic to illustrate the proper place to stake the castle nut and give a short instruction on how to do so. You are dealing with a mass of proper builders and need to know exactly where this is done and exactly what tools to use to do it. If you just say stake the castle nut some are going to get a hammer and punch and start pounding the nut. It's a very delicate process and one can totally miss exactly where it should be done. You don't have to go after it like you busting a leaf spring apart. It doesn't take a sledge hammer. It's a punch with a couple of taps will move the backing plate material into the castle nut indentations. Anyone standing on the gun like they are driving in a rail road spike is overkill. You are keeping the castle nut from moving not trying to weld it to the buffer tube. Jez guys you are something else. If you aren't careful the punch will slip and you will have a big scratch all the way down your buffer tube. Staking at gas key and castle nut is two very different. I use a small ballpeen hammer and small punch. There are no clockwise and counter clockwise forces on this part. It's forward rearward forces. The retaining plate is not moving anywhere. Just a small amount of material moved into the cutout of the castle nut will keep it from turning. It takes just a simple tap to produce this. Just because you saw someone on the internet use a 20 inch titanium punch with a sledge hammer doesn't make it right. " Of course everything we see on the internet it gospel". It's not a brute force job. For Christ sake it doesn't take that much force. I say delicate because you need to use some restraint during this process or you punch will move and mar the buffer tube if you hit it to hard. Just a simple tap to move a little material into the recess and it's done. That's all that is needed. It helps is you actually have tools and know how to use them. Not everything requires a BFH. That Colt pic is perfect. It doesn't take much to obtain that little knock. some castle nuts don't have that square cut out and only have a very little nick in the castle nut. Just a little material moved into that nick is all it takes. Like I said before there are not rotational forces at work so it doesn't have to be damn near spot welded to the buffer tube. All you are trying to achieve is keeping the castle nut from working itself all the way loose. I use thread locker and a small stake to sure up the nut. Way to much thought is going into this. Use a punch and a light hammer or whatever you have and move some material into the recess of the castle nut and move on. On some guns I don't even stake the castle nut if I am going to try several different parts on that end of the gun. I like to try different options just to see if there are any better results. Mainly noise or harshness when the guns discharges. So like I said give it a good smooth and accurate punch and move on. If you get too overzealous the punch will bounce off and hit your rifle and make a mess of your finish. That's why I said delicate. Not delicate as in hitting the punch but delicate in holding the punch so it doesn't move and tapping the punch so it does what you are intending to do and not going beyond that and scratching the hell out of your 1,200 dollar build. My builds cost a lot of money so I tend to use words that describe the overall process while protecting the overall finish on my gun. If you are throwing an all PSA piece of sh*t together go ahead and wack the hell out out of it. I won't make a difference anyway the whole gun will only cost 350 bucks when it's all said and done. We are making a mountain out of a mole hole here. When you take off a A2 stock do you see thread locker on the screw attaching the stock to the buffer tube. There is a place for thread locker. I use it when I think I am going to make a change there. Correct me if I am wrong but I think I mentioned this. Everyone is a gunsmith on here and are eager to jump in and add there two cents in and probably have built nothing but a PSA jammomatic. In my 50 years on this great earth I have seen I don't know how many gunsmiths do their thing. Each has their own tip and tricks. We can sit here and argue all day on who is right but just let it go. We are talking about staking a fu*king castle nut. Not setting the head space on a 475 H&H magnum. It's not going to blow up in our face. Stake the ******** nut add a little locker if you want and move the hell on. You people will argue on how monkeys f*ck. Just do it the way you want to and let others do their thing. For Christ sake guys. Do you not have anything else to do. I am trying to build a rifle and I get a jingle because some slack jawed fa*got is trying to make his mark on the thread. Go build something. If you know so much go to your bench and build and be productive and/or shut the hell up. I just added that to get a rise out of some of you. I clicked on ALERTS and all I saw was, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote. LMFAO.
^^^ That is amazing
tl;dr
I'm the smartest smart person that there ever was. I have an amazingly huge penis.
Whoa, what are the odds, ME TOO
Why must the AR always trigger such passions... 
Damn! Tough crowd in here.
