EV's are NOT America's future!

[Jambo]

And just to pitch back in because some of the participants in this thread don't seen to understand the economics of getting electrons to the charging points they need for their EVs.

Most of us know that the buildout of new data centers for AI are incurring costs to the consumer by way of increased infrastructure funding to meet power needs. Generation and distribution will always lag demand, and, at present, the distribution companies are concentrating their resources on data centers and not on upgrading residential and light industrial infrastructure:

They're spending it on supplying data centers. Because if they don't, the data centers will build their own generating capacity and then the existing utility companies will lose future business.

How data centers may lead to higher electricity bills - Harvard Law School

According to environmental and energy law expert Ari Peskoe, the public is paying for the energy infrastructure used to power Big Tech.

hls.harvard.edu

Harvard says "may". The reality is that not so much in GA, but in many places, they already are.

It doesn't really matter that much what your opinion is about whether subsidizing some of the world's largest companies in building out these centers, the reality is that their demand for electricity and that supply lag in power generation and distribution has a profound effect on EV adoption too. That increase in cost (no matter what line it's on in your energy bill) is a price signal. Competition for electricity at everyone's breaker box is increasing.

Until (and unless) the power generation and distribution infrastructure is upgraded (or demand for electricity falls) the economics of powering everything by electricity will continue to be uncertain, and the attendant risks greater.

There's a reason few cities use EVs for primary EMS response and fire suppression. They can't be sure they'll be able to charge them when they need to.

It's that simple.

"I say Henry Ford, old boy... You know that there aren't stations carrying that gasoline fuel on every corner. Your idea will never work. Horses will always reign supreme."

Some people seem to believe the nation was created with a Quick Trip on every corner, but it wasn't. That infrastructure had to be built. Investments (and concessions) had to be made. All new technology is somewhat disruptive.

No one in this thread has said "turn in all those gas guzzlers right now, it's EVs or nothing!" Pretty much every "Pro EV" person has said "Hey man, just drive what you want to drive."


Here's the thing: One day the oil will run out. Hopefully not soon, but one day.

We can either get ahead of it by starting to build the infrastructure and technology for alternatives, or we can bury our head in the sand until the oil becomes scarce and we have to fight global wars over oil.

 

[thevalueman]

"I say Henry Ford, old boy... You know that there aren't stations carrying that gasoline fuel on every corner. Your idea will never work. Horses will always reign supreme."

Some people seem to believe the nation was created with a Quick Trip on every corner, but it wasn't. That infrastructure had to be built. Investments (and concessions) had to be made. All new technology is somewhat disruptive.

No one in this thread has said "turn in all those gas guzzlers right now, it's EVs or nothing!" Pretty much every "Pro EV" person has said "Hey man, just drive what you want to drive."


Here's the thing: One day the oil will run out. Hopefully not soon, but one day.

We can either get ahead of it by starting to build the infrastructure and technology for alternatives, or we can bury our head in the sand until the oil becomes scarce and we have to fight global wars over oil.

we have enough oil to last for generations.....at this level of use and understanding.....way more there, when we figure out how to get to it....since we will be long dead, our survivors will deal with it, AND I would expect that there will be alternatives, beyond imagination....more than likely it will not be batteries.....it will be something we have not, and cannot even dream of today

 

[BHPSteel]

"I say Henry Ford, old boy... You know that there aren't stations carrying that gasoline fuel on every corner. Your idea will never work. Horses will always reign supreme."

Some people seem to believe the nation was created with a Quick Trip on every corner, but it wasn't. That infrastructure had to be built. Investments (and concessions) had to be made. All new technology is somewhat disruptive.

No one in this thread has said "turn in all those gas guzzlers right now, it's EVs or nothing!" Pretty much every "Pro EV" person has said "Hey man, just drive what you want to drive."


Here's the thing: One day the oil will run out. Hopefully not soon, but one day.

We can either get ahead of it by starting to build the infrastructure and technology for alternatives, or we can bury our head in the sand until the oil becomes scarce and we have to fight global wars over oil.

Nice attempt at irrelevant deflection.

The infrastructure to support your fantasy is currently inadequate and nobody is addressing it. To the extent that your comment makes any sense, it's that in order for internal combustion engines to replace horses, a robust and reliable way of delivering abundant fuel for all the vehicles that needed it was required. Fortunately, that need could be relatively easily satisfied with an ICE vehicle with a big tank of gas.

That's not feasible for your fantasy, and based on current buildout, won't be for quite some time.

Which is my point.

 

[Jambo]

Nice attempt at irrelevant deflection.

The infrastructure to support your fantasy is currently inadequate and nobody is addressing it. To the extent that your comment makes any sense, it's that in order for internal combustion engines to replace horses, a robust and reliable way of delivering abundant fuel for all the vehicles that needed it was required. Fortunately, that need could be relatively easily satisfied with an ICE vehicle with a big tank of gas.

That's not feasible for your fantasy, and based on current buildout, won't be for quite some time.

Which is my point.

Well, again, nice insults you've got there. I appreciate you keeping the discussion civil.

But let's talk about my "fantasy" of supplying electrical power to places:

Oh, if we only had some way to send electrical power to places. Maybe some kind of power lines or something? Oh, if only they were robust and reliable! If only they came to the nearest city! Of course they would never come to my home!

I guess this fantasy won't be possible for decades, nay, centuries! It will take at least that long to provide enough power for an EV; why, I've heard their overnight chargers need almost as much power as a clothes drier! By Jove, man, we'll NEVER be able to supply that much power to charging stations, much less to homes!

But, of course, Georgia Power has been running new power lines. They are also planning upgrades at two nuclear plants to provide 2200 additiona MWe at peak demand by 2030. Electrons will be moved.

Of course you are correct that fuel infrastructure for internal combustion engines was much easier to roll out. I mean, it's not like they had to

1. Find oil fields.
2. Build infrastructure to drill the oil out of oil fields.
3. Build pipelines to get the oil to the port.
4. Build tankers to haul the oil across the ocean
5. Build massive refineries to refine the crude into gasoline.
6. Build pipelines to transport refined crude to distribution centers
7. Build oil tankers to haul the gasoline to the stations
8. Build gas stations with massive underground tanks to fill with thousands of gallons of flammable liquids
9. Transport the thousands of gallons of flammable liquids to the station
10. Install electrical lines to the gas stations to run the pumps.
11. Hire and train all of the people required for steps 1-10.

Number 10 was especially hard, since there's no real way to get electricity around, as we've already discussed.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about this and all they needed once Benz built his vehicle was some ICE engine with a big tank of gas. I mean, the gasoline just magically appeared, and the big ICE engine just carried it along. In fact, the first drive up gas station was built in the U.S. in 1913, and everyone knows there was Quick Trip on every corner by 1914.

And as far as "irrelevant deflection" the argument of "We are going to need a lot of power for AI, so we won't be able to power EVs" is kind of bogus at best. Have you also been cautioning people with "We are going to need a lot of power for AI so you can't have an electric range" or "AI needs a lot of power, so no more welding", or "AI needs a lot of power, so no new cars, or maybe no manufacturing at all". "AI needs a lot of power, we probably won't have A/C much longer."

Once again: Do we have the infrastructure we need for 100% EV today? No.
Can we have the infrastructure we need in the future? Yes.
Did the fuel infrastructure to support millions of IC engines exist in 1886 when Benz patented his car? Nope. But it got built.

 

[Jambo]

we have enough oil to last for generations.....at this level of use and understanding.....way more there, when we figure out how to get to it....since we will be long dead, our survivors will deal with it, AND I would expect that there will be alternatives, beyond imagination....more than likely it will not be batteries.....it will be something we have not, and cannot even dream of today

Well, in that case, we should just do nothing. No sense in trying to improve any of our technology at all, since our grandchildren will come up with things we can't even dream of - I mean, except they might also think the same thing, so they would do nothing, expecting their grandkids to come up with alternatives.

Of course at that point I'm not sure who would be doing the "figure out how to get to it" part of the oil exploration, since we're all waiting on the future beyond our imagination.

Why not try new technology now? Why not explore and innovate now?

 

[Jambo]

I admit the vehicles themselves are not terrible and that they have real potential to get much better, but we should reinvest in the the power infrastructure for generation and delivery of electricity across the nation before we flood the roads with EVs ... build nuclear power plants all over the country so we have an overabundance of electricity with redundant backup systems so rolling blackouts are a thing of the past.

I appreciate where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. The "if you build it, they will come" only happens when the government FORCES it, which we don't want. The only way for what you want to happen would be for the government to force companies to build excess power plants and low usage power lines and charging stations, waiting on the "surge" in EVs. Heck, that's what Biden supposedly tried to do when he spent billions of dollars and built just two charging stations - although there may have been some crookery involved.

I, for one, don't want that. I want the market to drive it. Let market demand drive infrastructure and not the other way around.

 

[H2O MAN]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. The "if you build it, they will come" only happens when the government FORCES it, which we don't want. The only way for what you want to happen would be for the government to force companies to build excess power plants and low usage power lines and charging stations, waiting on the "surge" in EVs. Heck, that's what Biden supposedly tried to do when he spent billions of dollars and built just two charging stations - although there may have been some crookery involved.

I, for one, don't want that. I want the market to drive it. Let market demand drive infrastructure and not the other way around.

If Trump has proven anything he has proven that doing it the traditional government way of "how it works" never gets it done, thinking outside the box and building the foundation the way has been doing things actually gets it done. Biden and Obama pissed away billions playing the 'how it works" game, and we got nothing done, shame on both of them.

 

[EugenFJR]

If I read this correctly...Teslas are very comfy as to give the sense you're not in a hurry to get off a park bench of a ride. And people in Alabama are converting to Teslas. That's great news!!!

You dont know the difference between Miles Per Gallon and Miles Per Hour...you're forgiven, happens all the time to Tesla haters. Tesla people have no inkling to the meaning of MPG

I very seriously doubt that people in Alabama, in any meaningful numbers, are converting to EV's.

My ride was mostly miserable because of the traffic that I encountered. Once I got off the main highway, I put the top down, and very much enjoyed my drive on the back roads. ( the seats are thin, but I think a aftermarket seat pad will make the next, and hopefully last drive to Mississippi, much more bearable. )

My 6 hour drive would have turned into a seven hour drive if I had a EV, waiting a charger at Buc-ee's. Now that I think about it, I would have no idea where to charge my EV, before I left the hotel to return to Atlanta. Adding even more time to my return trip.

Did I mention that put the top down? I've gotten to the point where I seriously hate driving my car with the top up. And I was getting about 34 smiles per gallon, at about 70 mph. And I didn't have any range anxiety.

Internal combustion engines, on the highway are where they are most efficient and use the least fuel to maintain speed. Unlike a EV, that excels in city stop and go traffic, it uses a lot of battery to maintain highway speeds.

 

[thevalueman]

Well, in that case, we should just do nothing. No sense in trying to improve any of our technology at all, since our grandchildren will come up with things we can't even dream of - I mean, except they might also think the same thing, so they would do nothing, expecting their grandkids to come up with alternatives.

Of course at that point I'm not sure who would be doing the "figure out how to get to it" part of the oil exploration, since we're all waiting on the future beyond our imagination.

Why not try new technology now? Why not explore and innovate now?

Why are you worrying about something you have NO control over......a free economic system will take care of it self.....when the price of gas/oil gets too high to stand, someone will come up with alternatives....forcing alternatives is what the government is VERY good at, and typically screws up.....let the free market decide.....the free market is ALWAYS best at this kind of stuff....it's pretty simple....AND you shouldn't worry yourself over it
AND I didn't say "do nothing" I said let the dreamers and thinkers and entrepreneur come up with ideas, WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.....and, they will, AND they will make millions and millions, and then, someone will try to take it away from them because "it's not fair"

 

[thevalueman]