The new normal

[izoid]

Better yet, do you?

I'm not the one who pretended to know by asking the original question. I think if someone is going to use a question like that to try and make a point they should clearly know the answer.

The reality is that none of us really know. The Feds do what they want and apply laws in a number of ways, which benefit them and their cause at the time. While I would hate to have the Feds knock on my door I am confident that my overall record of selling at a loss would be a good indication that I am not making a living at it. I also think that it would be hard to prove any of the ammo flippers are actually selling ammo to "make a living". After all, they can only wait in line at one Walmart at a time and 3 boxes of .22 are not really enough to live off of.

 

[JWC]

that explains that funky walk

Hey, watch it fellar! hahahahahaha!

 

[AirOpsMgr]

I wonder how many people that make this comment actually understand the law as it applies to selling firearms as a hobbyist as opposed to making a living at it?

Is it if you make a profit on one gun but take a loss on 2? What is that magical number? What if you make a trade where the item you get has a higher value? If someone sells a G19, loaded, at a $50 loss and then sells something else for a $50 profit, has anyone broken the law? How many times does this scenario need to play out before they do?

Really now, I wonder if YOU actually KNOW the answer to this question?

I have done my due diligence and read up on the matter; apparently you have not; lucky for you, I'm a helpful kind of guy, so let me get you started with this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#business-definition

 

[AirOpsMgr]

When I was younger I was scared by LIVE ATLANTA WRESTING! That's why! hahahahahahahaha!

- - - Updated - - -

Hey AO, why aren't you at Jack's Deli? You having to work late?

Yes, working, unfortunately

 

[izoid]

I have done my due diligence and read up on the matter; apparently you have not; lucky for you, I'm a helpful kind of guy, so let me get you started with this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#business-definition

I think all of us have seen that numerous times. I am wondering though, can you answer the specific questions that were asked?

If not, how about these?

1. How much money must be made to be considered a livelihood?
2. How many sales must occur to be considered repetitive and in what time frame?
3. How about someone on ODT that trades a gun they have for another with the goal of using the new one for further trade purposes? That will show multiple feedback so it must be repetitive, right?

I would venture to say that you do not know the REAL answers to these questions but you will likely come back with something about a high number of feedbacks within a short period of time. It would be unfortunate for you if you did because you have no idea of what items were bought, sold or traded in order to get that feedback rating. For all you know, someone could be selling jelly beans!

 

[AirOpsMgr]

I think all of us have seen that numerous times. I am wondering though, can you answer the specific questions that were asked?

If not, how about these?

1. How much money must be made to be considered a livelihood?
2. How many sales must occur to be considered repetitive and in what time frame?
3. How about someone on ODT that trades a gun they have for another with the goal of using the new one for further trade purposes? That will show multiple feedback so it must be repetitive, right?

I would venture to say that you do not know the REAL answers to these questions but you will likely come back with something about a high number of feedbacks within a short period of time. It would be unfortunate for you if you did because you have no idea of what items were bought, sold or traded in order to get that feedback rating. For all you know, someone could be selling jelly beans!

Let me make this as simple for you as one can, since you are only intent on trying to expound upon what you call "grey areas" to justify your stand-point.

If I were to call the BATF and ask them: Is it legal for me to shop a couple gun shops each day, purchase multiple firearms over a 60 day period (lets say, I dunno, 40), complete the required 4473s knowing full well that my intent is to immediately turn around and sell them? What response, pray tell, would you expect, considering what you claim you already know?

No need for lengthy diatribes; this is really pretty simple....

 

[NWSharpshooter]

Lots of estrogen in this thread.

 

[Patronus]

Well, the IRS has this to say:

The following factors, although not all inclusive, may help you to determine whether your activity is an activity engaged in for profit or a hobby:
•Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?
•Do you depend on income from the activity?
•If there are losses, are they due to circumstances beyond your control or did they occur in the start-up phase of the business?
•Have you changed methods of operation to improve profitability?
•Do you have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business?
•Have you made a profit in similar activities in the past?
•Does the activity make a profit in some years?
•Do you expect to make a profit in the future from the appreciation of assets used in the activity?

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Is-Your-Hobby-a-For-Profit-Endeavor?




Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921 States:

(21)The term “engaged in the business” means-
(A)as applied to a manufacturer of firearms...;

(B)as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition...;

(C)as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


Now I suppose it's just vague enough for people who want to find some wiggle room to try, but it's also just vague enough to get convicted for illegal weapons trafficking. And that's IF the IRS doesn't get you for conspiracy to commit tax evasion(ir would it be tax fraud?).

 

[Thor827]

Let me make this as simple for you as one can, since you are only intent on trying to expound upon what you call "grey areas" to justify your stand-point.

If I were to call the BATF and ask them: Is it legal for me to shop a couple gun shops each day, purchase multiple firearms over a 60 day period (lets say, I dunno, 40), complete the required 4473s knowing full well that my intent is to immediately turn around and sell them? What response, pray tell, would you expect, considering what you claim you already know?

No need for lengthy diatribes; this is really pretty simple....

This is what some of these guys can't seem to grasp. This thread isn't about somebody making a few bucks off of an AR they've had for 6 months.
If you buy a new gun with the express intention of reselling it immediately, you are breaking the law.

 

[AirOpsMgr]

Well, the IRS has this to say:



http://www.irs.gov/uac/Is-Your-Hobby-a-For-Profit-Endeavor%3F




Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921 States:





http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


Now I suppose it's just vague enough for people who want to find some wiggle room to try, but it's also just vague enough to get convicted for illegal weapons trafficking. And that's IF the IRS doesn't get you for conspiracy to commit tax evasion(ir would it be tax fraud?).

Based upon what I have read, including CFRs & the numerous threads & reports that can be easilly found by doing a Google search for "Is flipping firearms legal", I can honestly tell you that my pockets are certainly not deep enough to fight the perceived "grey areas" in court.

I guess I'm just not a brave man