Thoughts on Virtus & the new service rifle XM5 Spear

[KOMRAD]

A while back I was looking at purchasing the Sig Virtus. I was able to finally handle the rifle version and I wasn't impressed.
Its not a bad rifle from what I gather.
However, like some I simply couldn't get over the weight, balance and feel of the chonky handguard. It is front heavy. Not balanced. And yes, I should hit the gym.

I have some light weight and compact ARs that just feel right for running and gunning.
I would consider the pistol version of the Virtus and I see why they can fetch 3k while the rifles are going for far less. I simply wouldn't want the rifle.

Also, the military's adoption of the XM5/Spear in 6.8x51 is interesting. I can imagine that is also hefty but for a battle rifle its acceptable.

I think Sig will eventually put the Virtus on a diet, make the barrel profile thinner again like on original MCX and slim the handguard like the aftermarket has done.
For the military, they should have adopted the 6.8 SPC or something like 6.5 Grendel.

With the popularity and demand what are your thoughts?

 

[Gixxer]

I can't believe this thread went nowhere.

I was about to start a thread to air out all of the professional and guaranteed hilarious opinions on the "adoption" of the XM5. Figured I should check on if I missed one already made first.

So yeah, come on all you ex- GI's, keyboard commandos, and weekend warriors. What say you?

 

[KOMRAD]

I'm stilled puzzled why they selected the 6.8x51 Fury for the MCX Spear.
The bullet technology from the M855A1 onto the 7.62 NATO and even 5.56 is good.
6.8 SPC version of M855A1 with increase powder, pressure would be great & would approach the 6.8x51 without getting into the AR10/battle rifle weight, size.

 

[spencer60]

From everything I understood the whole project was driven by the desire to defeat current rifle plates.

To get that energy you need a lot more pressure, hence the 80,000 (commercial) to estimated 100,000 psi (military). That kind of pressure means it has to be a much heavier build than anything we're used to seeing out there these days.

I've heard a couple of places that they think this will really only be issued to folks in the designated marksmen role, which kind of defeats the whole purpose since your logistics now have to deal with multiple calibers.

It'll be interesting to see how deep this change goes, and if it will stick. I could actually seeing the military just deploying the LMG in this caliber and leaving the SPEAR for special forces and such, kind of like the SCAR.

 

[KOMRAD]

I'm skeptical of the 6.8x51 ability to defeat future body armor on the combat field. I'm sure there are level 4 plates that already provide protection past 150 yards.

I don't think this will stick. Only special forces will adopt it. Mostly hype.
We still need a more potent M4 with a better intermediate cartridge.

 

[BEREZKA]

Its a solution to a problem better solved by loiter munitions or something like the punisher system (xm25). Same argument happens all over the internet about hurr durr my barrel u r armor. Its 5th gen warfare the individual rifle mean has taken a backseat to EW and unmanned assets

 

[Gixxer]

Without taking all the talking points, there is a lot to dissect about this decision by Big Army.

I heard fairly definitively and from multiple sources that this is intended to take the place of the M4, thus the designation "M5" to be given upon implementation. However I agree that it would fill a much better role as a DMR, specialists weapon, or an option for the high-speed SMU dudes and so on.

The change from an intermediate cartridge to one that more resembles a full-power battle cartridge is also drastic.

A squad of guys in the mountains with a fairly heavy semi-auto rifle capable of 600m lethality and accuracy with 20 round mags is feasible.

A platoon of grunts with 140 rounds in a standard loadout trying to suppress, flank, close-in, and destroy an enemy while still being heavier than being loaded with 210 rounds does not seem as logical. And would represent a major shift in military doctrine of the last 60 ish years.

Not to mention, ya know, the whole NATO thing?? I know most of them ain't as up to snuff as others but what happened to all the politics of the 7.62X51 and trying to get them all switched 5.56 guns? Seems like a big kick to their groin.

And something else that seems unwise...... What ever happened to not putting all your eggs in one basket?

SIG has won the pistol, belt-fed (which appears to be a great system and well-suited to a larger cartridge than the 5.56), and service rifle contracts. Didn't they their lesson from Colt?? Not to mention SIG being the developer of the new ammunition design to be used in conjunction with M5.

Just the thoughts of a nobody with no real skin in the game looking in from the outside.

Now that I've thrown some controversy in here I'm sure this will get a bite or two.

 

[Burning Love]

Without taking all the talking points, there is a lot to dissect about this decision by Big Army.

I heard fairly definitively and from multiple sources that this is intended to take the place of the M4, thus the designation "M5" to be given upon implementation. However I agree that it would fill a much better role as a DMR, specialists weapon, or an option for the high-speed SMU dudes and so on.

The change from an intermediate cartridge to one that more resembles a full-power battle cartridge is also drastic.

A squad of guys in the mountains with a fairly heavy semi-auto rifle capable of 600m lethality and accuracy with 20 round mags is feasible.

A platoon of grunts with 140 rounds in a standard loadout trying to suppress, flank, close-in, and destroy an enemy while still being heavier than being loaded with 210 rounds does not seem as logical. And would represent a major shift in military doctrine of the last 60 ish years.

Not to mention, ya know, the whole NATO thing?? I know most of them ain't as up to snuff as others but what happened to all the politics of the 7.62X51 and trying to get them all switched 5.56 guns? Seems like a big kick to their groin.

And something else that seems unwise...... What ever happened to not putting all your eggs in one basket?

SIG has won the pistol, belt-fed (which appears to be a great system and well-suited to a larger cartridge than the 5.56), and service rifle contracts. Didn't they their lesson from Colt?? Not to mention SIG being the developer of the new ammunition design to be used in conjunction with M5.

Just the thoughts of a nobody with no real skin in the game looking in from the outside.

Now that I've thrown some controversy in here I'm sure this will get a bite or two.

This was my gut instinct as well.

Admittedly, I know very little about why the military does what it does. The modern battlefield is always changing.

Maybe we’re planning on having to engage a bunch of Boston dynamics robot dogs in the future and this offers better performance? Time will tell. I don’t think it was a wise move, but I also know nothing about the future of war.

More than likely they were enamored by the MG configuration and adopted the spear as a way to justify it.

 

[Gixxer]

Admittedly, I know very little about why the military does what it does. The modern battlefield is always changing.

Same here, it is the assumption of a lot of folks I'm hearing and reading from that they are doing one of, or both, of 2 things.

1. Afghanistan put a massive spotlight on how limited 5.56 was on ridge to ridge fighting,

2. Expectation of a more conventional (mid to long range) ground war against a formal military. China, Russia, etc. Who utilize body armor that more easily defeats 5.56.


I was under the assumption we don't make changes on what has happened as much as what we expect WILL happen, so the first one doesn't make sense to a nobody like me.

And body armor available to the american public can defeat 224 Valkyrie out of a 20" barrel. Reaching the speeds desired out of the shorter Spear barrel with those super hot loads.

Even with an armor piercing projectile added I don't think it'll beat whatever the next iteration of armor will be deployed in a year or two.

 

[BEREZKA]

The US military doesnt care what pissant euro's want. Its the same thing with the implimentation of 7.62x51 and the FAL/m14 tardfight. The US sets the pace since its responsible (by way of spending the most money of defense and military) for fighting for european countries.

As for armor? US civilians are largest user of armor...