Too late...LOL
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LEO reaching in vehicle?
- Thread starter November Sierra
- Start date
Too late.
The "plain view" doctrine gives police the authority to seize items of contraband or evidence without a search warrant. There are 3 requirements for this doctrine to apply.
1. The officer must be lawfully present at the location - A traffic stop definitely covers this, unless it can be shown that the stop itself was unlawful, then you get into the whole "fruit of the poisonous tree" issue.
2. The officer must have lawful access to the item(s). - Though it might be subject to dispute, reaching in through an open window meets this requirement, as opposed to say, smashing a window.
3. The item(s) seized must be readily apparent as contraband or evidence. - This would be the only real point of contention in the OP scenario.
I think we can all agree that traffic tickets are not contraband, that is, their mere possession is not prohibited by law. I think we can also agree that they are neither fruits of a crime (such as stolen property) nor are they instrumentalities of a crime (such as burglary tools). If I were arguing on behalf of the state I would take the position that the tickets had evidentiary value in that they could constitute probable cause to believe that the driver's license might be suspended for unpaid tickets or that he may have outstanding warrants for the same. I could also argue that those items could tend to identify the driver and/or owner of the vehicle if this became an issue as well. People with warrants and suspended DL's tend to lie about their identity.
On the other hand, if I were arguing for the defense, I would take the position that the police could easily ascertain the driver's status by running him through dispatch/computer for warrants or suspensions and that the seizure of the tickets was unreasonable.
In the end, I'd just want to remind everyone that we EXPECT our LEO's to be suspicious. It is their job to root out lawbreakers. While it might occasionally result in some butthurt, there really wasn't anything unlawful or uncommon about the scenario as it was described.
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Sounds to me Like someone needs to Lose their Job and License to begin with. Multipule Citations in a Company Vehicle. Learn how to Control the Driving habits and you won't get put in that situation.
I am not a LEO but I am a police chaplain and have vast experience with LEO's. IMHO, what this officer did was unprofessional but not illegal. Remember that "reasonable suspicion" is what LEO's live and die by. I had a Game Warden do something similar to me once and it really pissed me off. Ultimately I had to just ask myself if it would be worth the hassle.
Sorry it happened this way. The vast majority of the LEO's I know are true professionals and would not act this way.
I would argue RAS and relevence...
what reasonable articuable suspicion did he have that they were outstanding citations? The courts dont require the originals to be returned.
Then there is the issue, being a corporate vehicle, what relevence was there of a former citation to the current alegations?
I would talk to someone with a license...
what reasonable articuable suspicion did he have that they were outstanding citations? The courts dont require the originals to be returned.
Then there is the issue, being a corporate vehicle, what relevence was there of a former citation to the current alegations?
I would talk to someone with a license...
Thanks. I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Not really, but search and seizure was my specialty, I used to teach this stuff to LEO's. How so?
This is why you should never leave your windows fully open, doors open or doors unlocked if you exit the car. If you "leave" them open then most LEO's use them as an "invitation" to go in.
The LEO will try to get you open your window ALL the way to "talk" to you but you are not obligated to do so. Open it enough to pass you paperwork and to talk back and forth.
While this guy is kinda rude it illustrates and covers some of the above topics. Opening windows, exiting car etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYBshAScmE
The LEO will try to get you open your window ALL the way to "talk" to you but you are not obligated to do so. Open it enough to pass you paperwork and to talk back and forth.
While this guy is kinda rude it illustrates and covers some of the above topics. Opening windows, exiting car etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYBshAScmE
Could have asked to see it, if denied could have then seized it instead of reaching in and grabbing something from someone which is appropriate in no other facet of life
If you try this tactic you will most likely be ordered out of the car. The courts have upheld the authority of police officers to remove persons from vehicles during traffic stops. See Maryland V. Wilson (US Supreme Court) and also Eaton V. State which is a Georgia case.
95% of the time when people tried that tactic with me it was because they either didn't want me to smell the booze on their breath or the burning weed in the car. If you act like you have something to hide you'll probably get treated like you have something to hide. One exception that comes to mind was the somewhat dense teenage girl who didn't want to roll down her window because she "wasn't sure I was a real police officer". Once I pointed out that I was in uniform driving a marked patrol car and had stopped her in broad daylight on a busy street, she rolled her window down.
Rereading the OP, he said the officer reached in and took it. He didn't "grab" it or "snatch" it or "yank" it. He took it. And the OP came here looking for validation that the cop did something wrong. Traffic stops are one of the most dangerous and tense situations that most cops encounter due to all of the unknown factors which is like "no other facet of life". You may not agree, but if more people would simply try to put cops at ease on traffic stops instead of trying to play ****house lawyer there would be far fewer tickets written. I call your attention to the last lines of my prior post.
I understand that we ALL are very protective of our individual rights, and rightly so. But nothing described in the OP is even remotely close to a violation of anyone's 4th amendment rights. Here are some facts that I've learned in my 48 years of life. Some cops are dicks and like to flex their muscle every chance they get. They are fortunately in the minority. On the other hand some people have a problem with authority, no matter how lawful that authority may be. Some people dislike the police simply because they do have authority and will attempt to thwart the police for no other reason. These are the people who try to make mountains out of molehills and seek corruption and abuse where there is none. They are the ones who assume ALL police are dicks and are only flexing their authority. And these are the people who usually talk their way into a ticket or a custodial arrest. They are also the ones who would show up at court and demand that a speeding ticket be dismissed because the officer didn't read them their Miranda rights. Sometimes I miss those ****house lawyers. They were usually good for a laugh.
