Mouse guns.

[JWC]

I would personally not recommend anything less than a 9mm and would prefer larger. 32, 25 and 22 are just a joke when it comes to SD. Yeah, yeah, I know they will kill someone, but that's not the point. A SD weapon is meant to stop an aggressor before they can do damage to you and those calibers are truly bad at doing that.

Bear44, I respect your opinion, but you are so far away from what really matters on this, it is hilarious. OF COURSE, the point is to kill the aggressor, what other point is there. I do not believe that we will get the opportunity to choose whether we can kill the aggressor before they do damage or kill the aggressor after damage is done. Since the guns you dislike will kill the aggressor, they have to be defined as SD guns, whether you like them or not. You did not present any facts to back up your statement, just your opinion. Like I said, I can respect your opinion, but I take it as just that, your opinion. I don't agree. A carried gun is a SD gun. A gun left at home, is worthless regardless of the caliber.

 

[Bear44]

I suppose it depends on how someone tries to 'get away with it'.
There are a few good small 9s, but there is truly a world of difference between pocket carrying an LCP/similar clone vs anything larger.

Stashing something in a computer bag opens up more options, but also entails more risk of discovery - also a reduced chance of having a gun available when you need it.

I personally don't carry at the office, and I don't know of anyone who does. I'm not sure, but I suspect that several folks have something stashed in a backpack or computer bag.

Have you ever pocket carried an LC9? I have. No problem.

There are also other options than pocket carry. A LC9 in a tuckable IWB holster simply disappears.

 

[Fatal_Bert]

And again, if you're going to carry a weapon, why would you choose anything other than a 9mm? It just doesn't make sense.

FIFY

 

[Leatherhead]

As far as what can be seen on this video, the only time a weapon would have come into play is after the victim had already been shot. If it had become apparent that the attacker was going to shoot me, my reaction in this situation would not have been to try and draw a weapon, I would have rushed him while stepping out of the line of fire and tried to get my hands on his weapon. At that distance in those circumstances trying to draw a weapon is a sure way to lose.

And again, if you're going to carry a weapon, why would you choose anything less than a 9mm? It just doesn't make sense.

My 38sp I EDC has heavier projectiles than any 9mm...

Better penetration.

 

[Bear44]

Bear44, I respect your opinion, but you are so far away from what really matters on this, it is hilarious. OF COURSE, the point is to kill the aggressor, what other point is there. I do not believe that we will get the opportunity to choose whether we can kill the aggressor before they do damage or kill the aggressor after damage is done. Since the guns you dislike will kill the aggressor, they have to be defined as SD guns, whether you like them or not. You did not present any facts to back up your statement, just your opinion. Like I said, I can respect your opinion, but I take it as just that, your opinion. I don't agree. A carried gun is a SD gun. A gun left at home, is worthless regardless of the caliber.

You're premise is wrong. A good SD gun is one that stops an attack. Killing is a side effect.

My opinion is backed up by every LE and Military organization that will not use anything smaller than a 9mm as their primary sidearm, which is basically all of them.

The ability of a firearm to stop an attacker is exactly what makes a difference in the likelihood that you will be able to stop the attacker before they can do damage to you.

Here is a different way of making my point. If you are in a fist fight, do you think a nice slap to the face will effectively win the fight or are you going to knock the crap out of the person to try and win the fight? Neither one of those is going to kill the person, but one is much more likely to end the fight than the other. Power matters.

 

[sheep dog]

I am somewhat surprised that this is being debated so intently.

Its well known tbroughout the circles of the L.E. & firearms training communities that ALL pistol calibers suck at stopping determined threats.
Smaller "mousegun" calibers are even less effective.

The failure to stop experiences in defensive shootings with rounds .380 sized & smaller are too many to count. Sure, they may kill eventually or occasionally stop a fight quickly but they're notoriously ineffective at consistent stops vs. a determined attack.
Mas Ayoob alone has written numerous articles on this topic providing countless examples of failures to stop with sub .38 Spec.sized calibers, hence the term in the training community, "Friends don't let friends carry mouseguns".

While just like larger "service" pistol calibers have become much more effective due to better bullet technology the smaller calibers (specifically the .380) has benefited from better bullet design but it is the smallest handgun caliber recommended by most Instructors.

Fortunately in many defensive situations the simple appearance of a firearm changes the dynamics of the event.... turning the tables on the attacker by putting them in possible fear for their life, which often results in their rapid retreat... but lets not get carried away thinking that a determined attacker who may be full of adrenaline, drugs, or mentally/ physiologically conditioned to violence will be "dropped like a rock" with a shot or two from our trusty little pocket .25 acp.

It has become way more common recently (at least on my range) for people who have finally decided to start carrying everyday, to do so with either a .38 or .380.
I encourage them to consider a larger, more effective caliber but acknowledge & appreciate the fact that almost ANY gun is better than none.
"Rule #1 of a gunfight is to have one"... which one is up to you.
Most (but not all) people being shot or shot at won't stick around to see what caliber you are using.

In my experience the mindset of most people who carry .38 Spec. & smaller calibers is, "I don't really think I'll need one but want to have something" whereas the mindset of those who carry 9mm & larger guns is, "I think I will have to use this one day & want every advantage I can get".

It all really goes back to the saying of Col. Cooper..... carry the LARGEST gun that you WILL carry & can hit with.

But lets not expect "magic" out of any pistol or pistol round.... especially smaller ones.

BOOM! Always enjoy your insights. And actual knowledge on gunology (yep, just made up a word)

 

[Bear44]

My 38sp I EDC has heavier projectiles than any 9mm...

Better penetration.

Thus it is not less than a 9mm.

 

[Kyzrsoze]

Have you ever pocket carried an LC9? I have. No problem.

There are also other options than pocket carry. A LC9 in a tuckable IWB holster simply disappears.

IWB in an office environment would be a ridiculous risk. No matter what people think guns don't disappear that easily. Being around the same people for that many hours a week - too much chance for printing or bumping into someone.

Pocket carry works, but I've never liked the LC9. As I said I don't even try carry at work, but my choice wouldn't be an LC9 or an LCP. I'd choose a well tested CM9 for pocket carry.

 

[Bear44]

IWB in an office environment would be a ridiculous risk. No matter what people think guns don't disappear that easily. Being around the same people for that many hours a week - too much chance for printing or bumping into someone.

Pocket carry works, but I've never liked the LC9. As I said I don't even try carry at work, but my choice wouldn't be an LC9 or an LCP. I'd choose a well tested CM9 for pocket carry.

Well, there you go then. Problem solved and it's not a mouse gun.

 

[sheep dog]

Just because certain highly skilled shooters can be effective with a smaller gun (like Claude for example) does not mean that the average person who does not train & is not highly skilled can expect to perform as well as professionals.
And he, if in a fight, would be more effective with a larger gun than a smaller one.

I have never heard of any professional encouraging their students to carry smaller guns over larger ones & don't expect to.

People carry them for convenience.... not the effectiveness of the round.
Smaller guns are simply a compromise but are in no way more effective.... occasionally as effective, sure.
But they do not have the track record of being more effective than 9mm/.40/.357/ .45 period.

Every now and again, I ponder the idea of getting a mouse gun (maybe like glock 42) but then remind myself this is as mousey as I wanna go...g26