Mouse guns.

[protective measures]

Bear44, I respect your opinion, but you are so far away from what really matters on this, it is hilarious. OF COURSE, the point is to kill the aggressor, what other point is there. I do not believe that we will get the opportunity to choose whether we can kill the aggressor before they do damage or kill the aggressor after damage is done. Since the guns you dislike will kill the aggressor, they have to be defined as SD guns, whether you like them or not. You did not present any facts to back up your statement, just your opinion. Like I said, I can respect your opinion, but I take it as just that, your opinion. I don't agree. A carried gun is a SD gun. A gun left at home, is worthless regardless of the caliber.

Ayoob, Marty Hayes, etc. are all very consistent that, especially in a civilian context, the intent should be to stop the threat.... not kill them.
If they happen to die so be it but it's recommended not to state that was your intent in shooting them.

 

[Bear44]

Yes. Ninety percent of my work puts me in non permissive environments. Due to the nature of my work it is neither practical nor prudent to attempt to carry a Glock 19 or similar sized pistol. My concession to that is to carry an LCR in .38 Special.

I chose the .38 as a matter of economics and with an understanding of my skills and limitations. I can shoot it quite well and more importantly I can practice with it and maintain proficiency. I'm also aware of the limited capacity and my options for reloads. Once again that falls into my decision making process.

Not everyone can shoot a 'lowly .38' well in a snub. That's where the smaller calibers come into play. .32 Long, .32 Mag, .327 Mag, .22 Mag and .22 LR are all viable options. I don't include .380's simply because I don't care for small autos. In my experience they are even harder to shoot well than small revolvers and require a higher level of maintenance than revolvers, especially when any form of pocket carry is used.

I've carried a .32 Long revolver on and off. To prove a point to myself I shot an entire seven stage IDPA match with it. It's a viable option with proper shot placement. At some point I'd like to acquire a .327 Mag to experiment with, however that's another discussion for another thread.

Once again, a 38sp is not a mouse gun, so.....

As for people that cannot handle the recoil of a good round, the question is why can't they? If it is a physical problem, they are a rare exception and then they should carry what they can....with no illusions about it's capability. Everyone else needs to spend more time at the range. In almost every case of "recoil sensitivity" at this level that I have been involved with, it is actually nothing more than not enough rounds down range or poor shooting technique.

 

[Wheeler]

Some of you seem to have lost sight of the fact that early on I defined a mouse gun as anything that shoots a round smaller than a 380. Everything else I have said is based on that.

The .32 Auto has consistently better penetration than the .380, especially when heavier clothing is introduced.

 

[WalterTHE3rd]

Oh ok thanks

 

[protective measures]

IWB in an office environment would be a ridiculous risk. No matter what people think guns don't disappear that easily. Being around the same people for that many hours a week - too much chance for printing or bumping into someone.

Pocket carry works, but I've never liked the LC9. As I said I don't even try carry at work, but my choice wouldn't be an LC9 or an LCP. I'd choose a well tested CM9 for pocket carry.

I have to disagree.
I do it on a regular basis & have for years w/o any issues.
I have a very good system that conceals my G-19 well.
This time of year I wear sweater vests with a button down dress shirt that is both very common business attire & very effective in concealing a mid sized gun.

 

[Wheeler]

Once again, a 38sp is not a mouse gun, so.....

As for people that cannot handle the recoil of a good round, the question is why can't they? If it is a physical problem, they are a rare exception and then they should carry what they can....with no illusions about it's capability. Everyone else needs to spend more time at the range. In almost every case of "recoil sensitivity" at this level that I have been involved with, it is actually nothing more than not enough rounds down range or poor shooting technique.

While poor technique is a factor, that's not always the case. You completely ignored the part about the .32
long.

 

[Kyzrsoze]

Some of you seem to have lost sight of the fact that early on I defined a mouse gun as anything that shoots a round smaller than a 380. Everything else I have said is based on that.

Understood, but generally LCP and smaller are considered mouse guns. I have made the choice to go a little larger, but it still doesn't work for everyone. These guns fill a needed niche.

 

[Kyzrsoze]

I have to disagree.
I do it on a regular basis & have for years w/o any issues.
I have a very good system that conceals my G-19 well.

I think we are talking about different things. In an environment where printing or an accidental bump could mean losing a job there is more to consider.

 

[JWC]

"Dead is dead, and stopped is stopped."

That is absolutely correct. They are also very different things when considering a SD weapon. Unless it's a CNS hit people almost never die instantly when shot with a handgun bullet, so the question is how well the round stops the attack, not whether or not it kills the attacker. 32 and smaller seriously suck at doing that job.

As for deciding what an effective SD cartridge is, LE is a very good sources for this information. They are not charged with going out and killing people, but the nature of their job means they are much more likely to find themselves in a SD situation. In fact, they are the group that is most likely to have to defend themselves, so paying attention to what their research has found is a good idea. I'm not the expert, but they sure as hell are.

I would also point out that using a substantial SD round and carrying every day are not mutually exclusive. If a person chooses to carry a weapon, but decides on a mouse gun caliber, that is their first tactical mistake. Especially when there are so many better weapons that are small as hell.

Dang man, you continue to miss the point. A carried gun is a potentially lethal gun. A gun left at home is worthless. Everyone should carry, and be proficient with what they carry. If you can't shoot what you carry, the caliber doesn't matter. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with the calibers you suggest, then they should carry what they feel comfortable in carrying and the caliber should not matter. If it matters to you, OK, but again, not everyone fits your profile.
If you believe it is a tactical mistake to carry something other than you suggest, then you are the one with the tactical problem. I believe it is a tactical mistake not to carry. Man, you are really missing the point.

 

[Fatal_Bert]

I really don't care what or how someone chooses to carry but what has really been cracking me up lately is all the lcp, bodyguards, and j-frame type guns I've been seeing people open carry proudly in a Blackhawk style paddle holster. Why the hell would you open carry a gun smaller than your wallet?