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selling/trading 80% lower guns
- Thread starter chucklenut
- Start date
maybe? and thats the issue lol
its weird, you dont save any money from building your own haha
no reason to really do it
The difference is he is not engaged in the BUSINESS of manufacturing firearms. He made a firearm for his personal use, then at a later date decided, he no longer wanted it.
All that being said I dont know if it would be legal to sell under federal law. And I don't know that a team of attorneys could tell you. As it stands right now, you could take it to a gun show and sell it and you would not be knowing breaking the law and said firearm could not be traced back to u at a later date. However if that sell is to an undercover ATF agent, well who knows what might become of you.
I think that the "in the business of" is murky as well... It's not as clear cut as being registered as a manufacturer, much the same way as being a dealer can be murky.
We all know that there are absolutely people here who buy and flip guns to make money. We know who they are, we see them buy a gun one week and then list it $25-$50 higher a couple weeks later... And while it is plausible to claim that they just like trying different guns out, there is a point where it becomes obvious that it's more than that... They flip a lot of guns to help fund their hobby of buying the actual guns that they want.
They aren't registered as a dealer, and they certainly aren't filing the profits as income, but I think that we would agree that they are playing in the gray area...
To me, 80% lowers simple aren't worth it. I can buy an AR lower for $40. So why spend more for an 80% one, plus the tools and stuff to mill it out, and my time, and the risk of doing it wrong, not to mention the fact that selling it one day could be an issue...
There is no benefit to me to make an 80% lower into a gun. It costs more, and has more red tape if I ever want to get rid of it, than just buying a finished product from a dealer...
If you are afraid of the gubment knowing what you have, then simply go the legal used market and follow the laws...
We all know that there are absolutely people here who buy and flip guns to make money. We know who they are, we see them buy a gun one week and then list it $25-$50 higher a couple weeks later... And while it is plausible to claim that they just like trying different guns out, there is a point where it becomes obvious that it's more than that... They flip a lot of guns to help fund their hobby of buying the actual guns that they want.
They aren't registered as a dealer, and they certainly aren't filing the profits as income, but I think that we would agree that they are playing in the gray area...
To me, 80% lowers simple aren't worth it. I can buy an AR lower for $40. So why spend more for an 80% one, plus the tools and stuff to mill it out, and my time, and the risk of doing it wrong, not to mention the fact that selling it one day could be an issue...
There is no benefit to me to make an 80% lower into a gun. It costs more, and has more red tape if I ever want to get rid of it, than just buying a finished product from a dealer...
If you are afraid of the gubment knowing what you have, then simply go the legal used market and follow the laws...
ATF says that if you buy one firearm [with the intention] of selling it for a profit then you are in the business of selling firearms and must have a license. The only murky part really is proving intent. As for the government knowing what you have, the 4473 goes nowhere but in a filing cabinet. The only time the gumint sees it or gets the info is when they request a trace which has happened about four times in 6 years that I have been in business. Otherwise if you buy more than one handgun in a period of a week then a multiple handgun report is sent. Those are the only instances where the government knows anything about what you bought. If you don't have a carry license and a NICS check is required then they can assume you bought something. They don't know what and no serial numbers are recorded on the NICS check. They only know handgun, long gun or other.
question, why are 4473 forms not destroyed after a period of time (or are they)?? or what happens if you guys close, do you turn your records over to the ATF? i can only imagine the giant pain in the ass housing all those would be
Interesting, good to know.
I just assumed that when you go through a dealer, that they know, even if they aren't supposed to. Which I am like, whatever. I obey the law, most I have ever gotten is a speeding ticket in my life...
I considered an 80% lower for an AR build at one point, but when I saw that it was way more cost and hassle than it was worth, I ditched the idea...
I think people who build ghost guns like knowing that the government doesn't have a record of that gun's acquisition.
But of course if the government were to do door to door confiscations, the government agents will have a list of other guns that they reasonably believe you have, based on guns that you did purchase from FFL dealers. So when they break into your safe to get those guns, they'll also find and take your "ghost gun" too -- even though they didn't know about it ahead of time.
And, keep in mind that if the government gets really intrusive and violates your second and fourth amendment rights, they will probably use your computer browser history and credit card and bank transactions to identify what firearms parts and accessories and ammunition you've purchased in the last few years.
They will search for any weapons that they reasonably suspect you have based on that information, too.
To keep your "ghost gun" off the government's radar, you need to build it from parts that you have acquired over the counter paying cash anonymously, not ordering any accessories or other parts online for it unless you have other guns registered to you that you don't mind the government knowing about that also use those same kinds of parts.
And then you will have to store your ghost gun and your ammunition for it in a totally separate location where law-enforcement is unlikely to find it while searching for the rest of your gun collection.
off the governments radar, you need to build it from parts that you have acquired over the counter paying cash anonymously, not ordering any accessories or other parts online for it unless you have other guns registered to you that you don't mind the government knowing about that also use those same kinds of parts. And then you will have to store your ghost gun and your ammunition for it in a totally separate location or law-enforcement is unlikely to find it while searching for the rest of your gun collectio!
But of course if the government were to do door to door confiscations, the government agents will have a list of other guns that they reasonably believe you have, based on guns that you did purchase from FFL dealers. So when they break into your safe to get those guns, they'll also find and take your "ghost gun" too -- even though they didn't know about it ahead of time.
And, keep in mind that if the government gets really intrusive and violates your second and fourth amendment rights, they will probably use your computer browser history and credit card and bank transactions to identify what firearms parts and accessories and ammunition you've purchased in the last few years.
They will search for any weapons that they reasonably suspect you have based on that information, too.
To keep your "ghost gun" off the government's radar, you need to build it from parts that you have acquired over the counter paying cash anonymously, not ordering any accessories or other parts online for it unless you have other guns registered to you that you don't mind the government knowing about that also use those same kinds of parts.
And then you will have to store your ghost gun and your ammunition for it in a totally separate location where law-enforcement is unlikely to find it while searching for the rest of your gun collection.
off the governments radar, you need to build it from parts that you have acquired over the counter paying cash anonymously, not ordering any accessories or other parts online for it unless you have other guns registered to you that you don't mind the government knowing about that also use those same kinds of parts. And then you will have to store your ghost gun and your ammunition for it in a totally separate location or law-enforcement is unlikely to find it while searching for the rest of your gun collectio!
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