The FBI is going back to 9mm.

[Jambo]

What a lot of people miss when comparing rounds is actual cross sectional area. OK, maybe there's a temporary cavity, maybe not. There is certainly a permanent wound channel, and the larger that channel is, the more likely it is to hit something that quickly incapacitates the bad guy. So what comes into play is exactly how much meat is pushed out of place, or the size of the cylinder of destruction.

It isn't the caliber diameter that you compare, it's the area. To calculate that, you have to remember A=(pi)(r)^2. If you do the math, you'll find that a .40 has about 25% more cross sectional area than a 9mm, and a .45 has about 27% more cross sectional area than a .40. That's why you want good expanding rounds, to make the area bigger. But with no expansion at all and equal penetration, a .40 destroys 25% more than a 9mm, and a .45 destroys 27% more than a .40.

All things being equal, the larger round a) destroys more tissue b) gives a better chance of hitting something that stops the fight. Of course, it usually adds more recoil that the shooter has to deal with, as well, and a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45. So basically, pick the largest bullet you can control.

With all of that said, the BEST thing you can do is place shots accurately. I've seen autopsy photos of a guy shot 47 times (yes, 47!) in the chest with various 9mm's. He was still fighting when the first 12 gauge slug hit him in the chest. He kept fighting until the second 12 gauge slug hit him, this time in the spine, turning him "off".

He was on nothing but adrenaline, and I suspect that if any of those 9mm rounds had hit his spine he would have stopped. Instead he was peppered with lung hits, possibly fatal, but not stopping him. Remember: It does no good killing someone if they live long enough to return the favor. What you want is to STOP it, NOW. Carry the biggest thing you can shoot accurately and quickly. Place shots well. Practice.

 

[Bear44]

What a lot of people miss when comparing rounds is actual cross sectional area. OK, maybe there's a temporary cavity, maybe not. There is certainly a permanent wound channel, and the larger that channel is, the more likely it is to hit something that quickly incapacitates the bad guy. So what comes into play is exactly how much meat is pushed out of place, or the size of the cylinder of destruction.

It isn't the caliber diameter that you compare, it's the area. To calculate that, you have to remember A=(pi)(r)^2. If you do the math, you'll find that a .40 has about 25% more cross sectional area than a 9mm, and a .45 has about 27% more cross sectional area than a .40. That's why you want good expanding rounds, to make the area bigger. But with no expansion at all and equal penetration, a .40 destroys 25% more than a 9mm, and a .45 destroys 27% more than a .40.

All things being equal, the larger round a) destroys more tissue b) gives a better chance of hitting something that stops the fight. Of course, it usually adds more recoil that the shooter has to deal with, as well, and a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45. So basically, pick the largest bullet you can control.

With all of that said, the BEST thing you can do is place shots accurately. I've seen autopsy photos of a guy shot 47 times (yes, 47!) in the chest with various 9mm's. He was still fighting when the first 12 gauge slug hit him in the chest. He kept fighting until the second 12 gauge slug hit him, this time in the spine, turning him "off".

He was on nothing but adrenaline, and I suspect that if any of those 9mm rounds had hit his spine he would have stopped. Instead he was peppered with lung hits, possibly fatal, but not stopping him. Remember: It does no good killing someone if they live long enough to return the favor. What you want is to STOP it, NOW. Carry the biggest thing you can shoot accurately and quickly. Place shots well. Practice.

There ya go. This supports "bigger is better" even without considering TWC.

 

[Bear44]

You are totally right-- not enough coffee this morning; I misread "could" as "would". My apologies.

I sure would like to see how one of those NorthFork 350s would penetrate from a .375 RUM. I've got an H&H, and even with 300s it's no slouch at penetrating trees and so forth. But I'll bet the RUM would tail to nose a buff, even with a belly full of grass. Incidentally, I'm totally sold on flat-nosed solids. If you need/want a solid, they are the kind to have. They go straight like a laser, through everything. No tumbling, like with a roundnose.

I'm happy with Northfork, too. I've only hunted with their SPs, but they work quite well, and are very accurate.

My third round on that buff was a hard angled shot. He was on a hillside almost facing me and facing down hill. I was on the opposite hill. I hit him high in the right shoulder and the bullet stopped low in his left hip. The bullet was a 300 grain Barnes Flat Nose Banded Solid doing a little over 2900fps at the muzzle. That's the shot that finally broke him down. At that point I wasn't going for internal organs. I was trying to break bone. I knew he already had two good rounds in the boiler room, but wanted to put him on the ground.

 

[protective measures]

There ya go. This supports "bigger is better" even without considering TWC.

No point in debating this much further since we are both entrenched in our positions.

After decades of ammo development specifically for self defense since the "Miami Massacre" of 1986 the leading experts in ballistics including the ones at the FBI who are w/o question the leading experts in the world in this field of study w/ extensive data & resources including shooting databases from across the entire country have concluded that there just is not much difference at all between service rounds.

In addition the top professionals in the training community, most of which are retired L.E. or military, carry the 9mm.

If you can convince those groups that they are wrong then I would reconsider my position, but till then I am going to side w/ virtually all of the experts in this area who all have came to the same conclusion.

I was slow to change myself but I just couldn't refute the volumes of evidence, the most recent of which is this new report, that confirm that pistol bullets all perform on the low end of the scale.

 

[Bypass]

Have any of yaw ever actually shot anyone with anything? Just thought I'd ask. I mean the likely hood of ever actually having to use a firearm in a SD situation is kind of slim. So why worry about it. Carry what you like and are comfortable with and to heck with what the government decides is best to carry.

You can be like me and buy guns that you have never shot and never shoot them and carry them daily. That's what I do and I have survived every civilian SD situation I have ever been in. All none of them.

Operate on,
Bypass out.

 

[protective measures]

Ask yourself why fewer people can shoot a 45 effectively. It's because of the increased energy it creates. Energy that has a distinct effect on the person catching the bullet.

The statistics about the percentages of missed shots is based on police performance and does not apply directly to a true SD situation. SD typically happens at much closer range than police shootouts and the percentages of hits goes up. Even if that were not true and the percentages were still that low, that would increase the importance of performance for any rounds that do hit the target, not lesson it.

Regardless of whether or not a person empties a 5 round mag or a 17 round mag, the outcome of the incident will still have been determined within the first few shots fired.

All of the research that I've done, especially the writings of Mas Ayoob disagree w/ your first sentence.
It is not the energy of the low velocity pistol bullet that does the damage to the organs, tissues, & blood vessels comparable to a rifle bullets velocities.... it is the physical cutting, tearing action of the pistol bullet contacting the flesh.

Also, in my now considerable experience (boy my hair is starting to gray), I have found that the hardest round for shooters to control (between the 9mm, .40, & .45) is w/o question the .40 due to the snappy characteristics of the round.

 

[bearpugh]

45 guys love believing the bull. i like 45 because to me in a 1911 its pleasant to shoot. but i don't carry one anymore.

 

[Laufen]

Have any of yaw ever actually shot anyone with anything? Just thought I'd ask. I mean the likely hood of ever actually having to use a firearm in a SD situation is kind of slim. So why worry about it. Carry what you like and are comfortable with and to heck with what the government decides is best to carry.

You can be like me and buy guns that you have never shot and never shoot them and carry them daily. That's what I do and I have survived every civilian SD situation I have ever been in. All none of them.

Operate on,
Bypass out.

LOL

 

[Bear44]

All of the research that I've done, especially the writings of Mas Ayoob disagree w/ your first sentence.
It is not the energy of the low velocity pistol bullet that does the damage to the organs, tissues, & blood vessels comparable to a rifle bullets velocities.... it is the physical cutting, tearing action of the pistol bullet contacting the flesh.

Also, in my now considerable experience (boy my hair is starting to gray), I have found that the hardest round for shooters to control (between the 9mm, .40, & .45) is w/o question the .40 due to the snappy characteristics of the round.

We'll see what the conventional wisdom is in a decade or two.

 

[protective measures]

We'll see what the conventional wisdom is in a decade or two.

By then maybe we'll have lasers & phasers like Star Wars or Star Trek.....