The FBI is going back to 9mm.

[kuduman]

Bear, one other observation. This is with rifle though. .375 H&H on plains game put big animals down-- they're sick, but on the ground. .300 Ultra-- same animals, same kind of shots-- they're sick on their feet. (Obviously I mean if I didn't hit CNS, or skeletal structure.) From what I've seen, the .375 is far more effective. Yet at 150 yards, the .300 RUM delivered 1000 more ft-lbs of energy (my loadings-- 300 SP in .375 vs. 210gr. Bergers in the 300 RUM). It has its place-- for shots beyond 200 yards. But man oh man the .375 just _works_. And it's less painful to shoot...

The .375 is a monster. Some .sig I saw on Accuratereloading said it best: ".375 H&H: One planet; one rifle."

Does great on deer, too. : )

Your .375 RUM, loaded with the 260 Accubonds, might greatly extend the awesome .375 performance on plains game, what with the high BC. The H&H, love it though I do, is really beyond its limit at 300 yards.

 

[sold7]

can we just solve this with explosive or poison tipped bullets

 

[protective measures]

I know it does...and made that point earlier in the thread. Most of those ballistics gelatin vids on youtube only show the 9mm wonderbullets against standard 45 ACP and nobody questions it.

Actually "tnoutdoors09" has an excellent channel that compares the performance of almost all top defensive loads from a wide variety of defensive calibers.
While ballistic gelatin is not an exact duplicate of a human torso, using the performance of the loads known to have excellent performance in actual shootings (.357 125 gr. JHP, 9mm Speer Gold Dot BHP 124 gr. +p, .45 230 gr.+ BHP, etc.) gives one an excellent performance baseline on what to expect from other rounds.

 

[protective measures]

Regarding wounding, I'm in agreement with Protective Measures. The extra energy of one pistol bullet over another is basically irrelevant. In the case of a .45, some of that energy is spent deforming the bullet. Obviously, a larger bullet takes more energy to deform.

The temporary cavity from handgun rounds doesn't surpass the elastic limits of most tissue, therefore it doesn't tear, and that energy just turns into heat-- but not enough heat to burn it, just to raise the temperature a few degrees. 100 ft-lbs of energy is 32 calories, or enough energy to raise one ounce of water (or tissue) about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit. This isn't going to affect wounding.

Now, liver tissue isn't elastic, so temp stretch cavity is destructive there. But most other tissue will simply un-stretch back into place. From a rifle though-- any bullet above around 2000 fps-- then the temp stretch cavity does exceed most tissue's elastic limits, and the tissue tears. This causes bleeding. Tearing the tissue-- think about the broadhead arrow-- does cause bleeding and the more of that, the faster blood pressure drops, leading to the desired outcome-- the fight ends.

See the work of Dr. Martin Fackler, etc.-- I'm just repeating what I've read over the years. I have no experience with this, outside of hunting with rifles.

There's been a lot of good work done in this area since 1986, and some of it is counterintuitive. That's science.

One other comment-- recoil is proportional to momentum, not energy. Momentum is mass times velocity-- energy is mass times velocity squared. You can have lots of energy, and low momentum (5.7, or .22 TCM). Or lots of momentum, and little energy (a bowling ball). This isn't necessarily intuitive, but it is reality. "Felt recoil" is something else, with a lot of other variables-- grip size, barrel height above hand, recoil spring force, grip strength, weight of gun, etc. All those affect the perception of recoil, but the momentum transfer is what is is-- multiply the bullet weight by the velocity, and if you're a purist, add in the powder charge weight times 5000 fps. That number, in whatever units you want, is the actual "recoil". More energy does not necessarily equal more recoil. FWIW.

(If you play with this, you'll quickly discover that a large proportion, maybe half, of the recoil from rifle cartridges is due to the powder...)

After the great strides forward in bullet design in the 90's with the development of bonded ammo, the FBI protocols of a minimum penetration depth of 12"-18" into a human body, along w/ a bullet that held its structural integrity, & proper bullet placement are considered to be the most important factors.
In otherwords:

1. Penetration
2. Placement
3. Bullet design

This is so widely accepted among the training community that it is seldom discussed anymore. It's on par w/ saying the world is flat... we've all moved on.
I once heard a colleague make a great summary observation. He succinctly said, "The caliber wars ended in the late 90's... they're all about the same & they all suck."

Out of respect for Cooper & Bear I would add this paraphrased quote from Cooper. "Carry the largest caliber that you will carry & can hit with"

If the larger caliber gives you more confidence, you have a gun chambered in that round that you will carry & can shoot accurately, then that's the one for you. But don't expect it to be the mythical "magic" bullet. I wasted the better part of 2 decades looking for it before figuring out the "magic" was in the training & tactics... not the bullet.

 

[Clarke123]

Those who ignore history have the habit of repeating it ....

The .45 ACP was the direct result of actual experience obtained during the 1899-1902 Philippine Insurrection
Many, many U.S. Soldiers were literally hacked-to death after emptying their .38 Service Revolvers into Philippine Katipunan warriors hopped up on drugs.
Don't confuse the issue by arguing FMJ vs Lead Projectiles ... Our troops were using soft lead projectiles and even filing off the ends of their Krag Rifle cartridges ... experience from which derived the lyrics of a U.S. Marine drafted drinking song: "damn, damn, damn the Filipinos, nothing can stop them but a Krag ..."
Aside from the Krag, the few officer owned Colt .45's would put them down with a single shot.

Even during WWII, the British loaded 200 GR .38 Loads for the lend-lease .38's that we provided them ...

History has shown that "Big and Slow" provides better stopping power than "Small & Fast" .... under combat conditions
I would think that the idea is to "Stop" rather than "Kill" the bad guy ...
That said, the idea of "killer" SD loads in a LEO weapon OR illegal under the International Rules of War is something that appears politically incorrect in a civilized society.

IMHO: that's the reason for the .40 S&W as it is a compromise, but (apparently) effective substitute solution to the problem ...
The problem being that some men and women simply cannot handle a large scale pistol ... So, either don't hire them or have them carry
something with a smaller frame.

.

 

[titan2k10]

Those who ignore history have the habit of repeating it ....

The .45 ACP was the direct result of actual experience obtained during the 1899-1902 Philippine Insurrection
Many, many U.S. Soldiers were literally hacked-to death after emptying their .38 Service Revolvers into Philippine Katipunan warriors hopped up on drugs.
Don't confuse the issue by arguing FMJ vs Lead Projectiles ... Our troops were using soft lead projectiles and even filing off the ends of their Krag Rifle cartridges ... experience from which derived the lyrics of a U.S. Marine drafted drinking song: "damn, damn, damn the Filipinos, nothing can stop them but a Krag ..."
Aside from the Krag, the few officer owned Colt .45's would put them down with a single shot.

Even during WWII, the British loaded 200 GR .38 Loads for the lend-lease .38's that we provided them ...

History has shown that "Big and Slow" provides better stopping power than "Small & Fast" .... under combat conditions
I would think that the idea is to "Stop" rather than "Kill" the bad guy ...
That said, the idea of "killer" SD loads in a LEO weapon OR illegal under the International Rules of War is something that appears politically incorrect in a civilized society.

IMHO: that's the reason for the .40 S&W as it is a compromise, but (apparently) effective substitute solution to the problem ...
The problem being that some men and women simply cannot handle a large scale pistol ... So, either don't hire them or have them carry
something with a smaller frame.

.

Couple of points....

45 ACP never saw action in the uprising
45 ACP was simply better than the 38 Long Colt
Assuming that bullet construction has remained static for over a century is just foolish
45 Long Colt was also deemed unsatisfactory at putting them down.....

This myth needs to die a horrible death. It continues to do nothing but fuel nostalgia.

 

[chucklenut]

from what i understand, shooting someone with a modern caliber of any type is a good way to stop them

 

[lostgeorge75]

I carry a 9mm but I use a full size .45 and 5.56 rifle for HD.

I choose .45 for HD based on Doc Roberts' test of Federal HST which are my go-to rounds. .45 HST versus 9mm HST: Bare jel .45 expanded 0.1" larger and penetrated 0.7" deeper. 4-layer denin .45 expanded 0.13" larger and penetrated 0.7" deeper. Auto glass .45 expanded only 0.01" larger but penetrated 6.3" deeper.

As long as I can shoot the .45 as accurately and quickly, the tiny bit of extra expansion and little additional penetration might make a difference. But when you add intermediate barriers like auto glass (or bone, furniture, sheetrock, etc.), the .45's additional weight gives better penetration and gives it the edge in my mind.

 

[Shemp]

from what i understand, shooting someone with a modern caliber of any type is a good way to stop them

not unless it's .45.....everyone has to choot .45 just like me or they're are dumb.

SEROSULY just kidding. It is funny how some people get so wrapped up in that. I like .45. I can shoot it best. It's what I carry.

 

[RevCov]

This is actually pertinent to me right now. I'm looking at 2 police trade ins - both service size pistols 1 is 40sw and the other 9mm and I'm wavering because I like the feel of the 40sw better than the 9mm but am wondering if I should be more concerned with the caliber than the feel in the hand.