Took some good training over the weekend

[Wheeler]

I took an advanced carbine class from Martial Gun several years ago. We performed the Hackathorne Snake Drill with long guns. It was very intensive & muzzle awareness was beat into our heads.

I'm on my phone and can't watch the vids right now but look forward to looking at them when I get home.

PM is right, this not intended as a shot at him or you but, anything you post will be scrutinized and picked apart. Don't post the mistakes

 

[Outlander]

I took an advanced carbine class from Martial Gun several years ago. We performed the Hackathorne Snake Drill with long guns. It was very intensive & muzzle awareness was beat into our heads.

I'm on my phone and can't watch the vids right now but look forward to looking at them when I get home.

PM is right, this not intended as a shot at him or you but, anything you post will be scrutinized and picked apart. Don't post the mistakes

Yep PM is right and yep anything posted will be scrutinized and picked apart (who cares as long is it is done in a constructive manner?)........we can be worse than old maids gossiping about the townfolk. Any advanced training that I have ever particpated in involved dummy or unloaded weapons in the first few runs/evolutions before going live.

 

[willr1]

PM, I appreciate your constructive critizism, but after re-watching it, I still fail to see where you say I (white guy) swept my partner and vice versa. I know the vid is sideways, but if you look at my left foot and his right heel, we are at a 45 deg angle and when we engage the target, the front person is clear to the left of the shooter as this was not a "fast"drill and we kept the pistols pointed down, finger on the slide each time we rotated. If I did see myself or my partner doing something wrong, I sure would not post it up as it is not only humiliating, but like you said, it sets a bad mindset for prospective students and that is something no instructor would want.

I agree with you on safety and if at anytime I see something that could be done safer, I would point it out as I would hope another instructor would as you have done, and I appreciate you looking for any safety infractions that could pose a threat to the safe operation of the drill. Though it was not my course, everyone who engages in such courses needs to have situational awareness at all times, students and instructors. Thanks again

 

[shaneadams90]

looks like fun. Would be a little uneasy about advancing down range while others where still firing at oringinal firing line though.

^^^^^^x1000

some pretty bad muzzle sweeps in there too....scary....21seconds in...rear guy sweeps other guy at kidney level....not cool...
Training is great provided it is GOOD training...

I am NOT casting stones; BUT, there are some GLARING safety violations in here to me....
Not maintaining a firing line when there are shooters obviously not on the same level
Several muzzle sweeps, ONE is to many in my book
Learning to support your buddy is AWESOME, PRACTICAL, and a much needed skill in a fire fight.

RE-read my post and realized I sounded a bit Dousch-like....seriously, not casting stones, and I wasn't there, but there are some issues with the first drill in particular, that throw up numerous RED flags to me in the short time I watched. To be clear, I watched it several times, and studied an individual shooting group each time. Even turned my lap top up on end to get the right perspective....I wish you the best and seriously hope that you understand that my points are meant to be constructive and are a simple observation.
Shooting your buddy sucks.

 

[protective measures]

I appreciate your professionalism.
If you pause the video & doubleclick the play button slowly at :12 & :21 the muzzle of your pistol clearly sweeps your the lower part of your partners legs the first time & entire middle torso the second time.

Then at the end of the video you advanced beyond the firing line while others were still firing... thats in violation of every schools' range rules that I've ever been to.

As you are aware, as you get into more Advanced shooting drills muzzle & trigger finger discipline become critical... especially doing C.Q.B. exercises & Dynamic Entry with S.W.A.T/L.E. teams or certain military units.
In the course of some of those exercises it is sometimes unavoidable to sweep a partner which is one of the reasons the 'sul' position is utilized so often & proper trigger discipline is absolutely necessary.

I'm sure that we are in agreement that those techniques have very limited civilian applications & are best reserved for Officers,Soldiers, Instructors & other personnel whose job description requires them to go in Harm's Way.

Again, I appreciate your sense of professionalism by not being angry or provoked as that was not my intent.

I'm sure on your range as well as mine everyone is a safety officer.
Video is a terrific teaching tool for all of us to examine & critique the fundamentals of our students as well as ourselves.

 

[ngcsugrad09]

I've watched, paused, etc at the :12 and :21 second marks, and if you consider their foot placement in relation, the muzzle doesn't appear to be sweeping.

Also, on the moving down range while others are firing bit.. I've been to a class or two where this has been done. Nothing wrong with it as long as the students are up to par and the instructor is dialed in enough to know what's going on. Looking at his background on his site, we've been to a lot of the same classes and trianed under the same instructors.. Those classes have done similar exercises. A famous/infamous one is the Snake Drill by Ken Hackathorn.

I think the "Sul" position is very relevant in a civilian application, especially in a more urban setting.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

 

[Wheeler]

I've watched, paused, etc at the :12 and :21 second marks, and if you consider their foot placement in relation, the muzzle doesn't appear to be sweeping.

Also, on the moving down range while others are firing bit.. I've been to a class or two where this has been done. Nothing wrong with it as long as the students are up to par and the instructor is dialed in enough to know what's going on. Looking at his background on his site, we've been to a lot of the same classes and trianed under the same instructors.. Those classes have done similar exercises. A famous/infamous one is the Snake Drill by Ken Hackathorn.

I think the "Sul" position is very relevant in a civilian application, especially in a more urban setting.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Absolutely. Sul is an excellent position for civilians to learn to use. Ken Hackathorne's snake drill is a very good exercise, albeit for advanced students. It's up to the instructor to be able to guage the level of the class, and proceed accordingly. I've been in classes as well that required us to move off the traditional firing line, and "downrange". In the words of SDH "The real world is a 360 degree range." I can't stress enough that these types of exercises are not for the faint of heart, nor are they for novices.

I personally don't see why some instructors reserve this skill set for military/LEO/private contractors only. As private citizens that carry firearms, statistically we have a better chance of finding ourselves in a situation where our firearm will be presented. I feel it's prudent to be able to have a level of training to default to, rather than hoping we will rise to the occasion. Considering that many of us move in and out of crowds of people quite often, wouldn't you agree? Unless it's a liability potential for the school perhaps?

 

[protective measures]

I wasn't saying that position "sul" was not a good technique for civilians. I

I'm not saying advanced classes or advanced techniques are only for L.E. or Military... I'm saying that they are dangerous unless the students have very sound fundamentals so that there is less danger of sweeping or shooting your partner or someone else by accident.


At :21 the pistol went from the 8/9 o'clock position to the 12 o'clock position while still being held almost completely horizontal. The OP was moving from directly behind his partner advancing toward the threat.
On a more positive note, I liked how the O.P. touched his partner on the side from which he went around before he went around him.

As far as liability goes, anytime that you have anyone handling a firearm on a range where you are responsible for their safety you have liability... sure some drills are more dangerous than others but the Insurance Co. doesn't differentiate.

And let me be real clear about something.

I am not trying to "bash" the O.P.

I applaud him for his efforts & enthusiasm.
If there's one thing that I'm sure we can agree about is that there are too many untrained people carrying guns that they aren't competent enough with.
Instead of just sitting back & complaining about it, the O.P. is actively training himself & training others.

I offered some advice &, agree or disagree, he took it like a man. I respect that.
I'm sure that if he came to my range/ classes & something caught his eye that he would do the same for me.

 

[protective measures]

You should post a highlight reel from your school

Working on it... I know my way around most guns but I'm very technically deficient with cameras.

 

[Wheeler]

I wasn't saying that position "sul" was not a good technique for civilians. I

I'm not saying advanced classes or advanced techniques are only for L.E. or Military... I'm saying that they are dangerous unless the students have very sound fundamentals so that there is less danger of sweeping or shooting your partner or someone else by accident.


At :21 the pistol went from the 8/9 o'clock position to the 12 o'clock position while still being held almost completely horizontal. The OP was moving from directly behind his partner advancing toward the threat.
On a more positive note, I liked how the O.P. touched his partner on the side from which he went around before he went around him.

As far as liability goes, anytime that you have anyone handling a firearm on a range where you are responsible for their safety you have liability... sure some drills are more dangerous than others but the Insurance Co. doesn't differentiate.

And let me be real clear about something.

I am not trying to "bash" the O.P.

I applaud him for his efforts & enthusiasm.
If there's one thing that I'm sure we can agree about is that there are too many untrained people carrying guns that they aren't competent enough with.
Instead of just sitting back & complaining about it, the O.P. is actively training himself & training others.

I offered some advice &, agree or disagree, he took it like a man. I respect that.
I'm sure that if he came to my range/ classes & something caught his eye that he would do the same for me.

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I totally agree with you about the level of training and ability of the students. Any activity that involves firearms is a potential lifechanger. Safety is paramount. Like any sort of class or training, you only get out of it what you put into it. As best I can see, the OP got quite a bit out of his class.

I was wondering more about some shady lawyer attempting to go after the school for teaching advanced methods to students, should something go south and the student is facing a wrongful death suit. That was what I meant by liability.

Wheeler

My apologies for the confusion.