Argue for Mandated Training So As To Exercise a Basic Civil Right

[InitialKev]

You do, however, need to produce a statistic that shows that states with training requirements are significantly safer than states without.

Then we can show you the statistics that show that each further obstacle to obtaining a permit drives down participation...extra fees, weird requirements for "may issue" states, and yes, expensive and inconvenient training requirements.

I don't need to produce that statistic because I didn't say that it made states that require them safer. I merely said it would help educate people.

I don't doubt that having a lot of restrictions on obtaining a carry permit will deter people from getting them. I followed the story on the reporter from DC and her book for a little bit.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt if people took safety courses prior to getting a permit.

 

[batoncolle]

I don't need to produce that statistic because I didn't say that it made states that require them safer. I merely said it would help educate people.

I don't doubt that having a lot of restrictions on obtaining a carry permit will deter people from getting them. I followed the story on the reporter from DC and her book for a little bit.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt if people took safety courses prior to getting a permit.

Then please post and let us know when you have actually taken your first course...

I have taken 100s of hours of training classes. Has this made me a better shooter? Yes
Has this somehow given me the privilege of more rights to protect myself than someone who has not? Hell no!

 

[white]

Could you spell out the extra restrictions on the second amendment you support for 'idiots' and then for 'non-idiots'? Be great if you could also let us know who gets to decide who the idiots are (it could be kind of important).
These threads always amaze me....

This.

 

[InitialKev]

I look at the whole gun issue from an objective none biased point of view. I'm neither a gun nut that wants unrestricted exercise of our 2nd amendment nor am I a total anti gun/ ban all guns "left wing liberal".

I may not have taken an official safety course but I was taught the 4 main safety rules the first time I ever handled a firearm. Actually he is a member here. CCW (evil clown avatar) to be exact. And I recall muzzling him at one point and he pointed it out and I quickly corrected.

The 2nd Amendment has no restrictions as written but yet we do have restrictions so asking me to point out "extra restrictions" is stupid. Self preservation is universal and I don't need a piece of paper to tell me that I can protect myself and in my opinion using the 2nd amendment argument simply because it's in the Constitution is kind of weak. You all seem to want unrestricted exercise of our 2nd amendment so what about the felons or the mentally ill. Don't they have the right to protect themselves too? We have these restrictions because they protect us (or at least try) from the misuse of firearms.

I am in no way suggesting that people submit to 100s of hours of "tactical" training. All I'm saying is that people need to learn how to handle firearms safely. I know there are some responsible people who will go take courses even if not required. They do that out of personal responsibility but sadly these days personal responsibility and common sense is very lacking. If someone can't be bothered to learn how to handle a firearm safely because it's too "inconvenient" they shouldn't have a a gun. If someone is not competent enough they shouldn't have a gun.

 

[Cobalt 60]

InitialKev - no one here is arguing that people should be properly trained before owning or carrying a firearm. They are arguing that requiring training is contrary to the right to keep and bear arms being a right. No one ever argues that you should have to have training to birth a child. Yet from a practical standpoint, if you want to keep society safer, a license to have kids could go a long way towards that - you know - keep the idiots from having kids. But any mention of this (rightly) causes a huge uproar.

First it is a training requirement. Next a storage requirement. Then a limit on rounds. Then a limit on particular firearms. The "common sense" regulations just lead to more and more regulation. Georgia is going in the right direction, and hopefully will eliminate the license requirement someday.

And I do think that convicted felons should be allowed to own firearms once they have completed their sentence. And "mentally ill" can cover everything from anxiety disorders to violent sociopathic behavior, so their is a scale there.

 

[white]

I look at the whole gun issue from an objective none biased point of view. I'm neither a gun nut that wants unrestricted exercise of our 2nd amendment nor am I a total anti gun/ ban all guns "left wing liberal".

I may not have taken an official safety course but I was taught the 4 main safety rules the first time I ever handled a firearm. Actually he is a member here. CCW (evil clown avatar) to be exact. And I recall muzzling him at one point and he pointed it out and I quickly corrected.

The 2nd Amendment has no restrictions as written but yet we do have restrictions so asking me to point out "extra restrictions" is stupid. Self preservation is universal and I don't need a piece of paper to tell me that I can protect myself and in my opinion using the 2nd amendment argument simply because it's in the Constitution is kind of weak. You all seem to want unrestricted exercise of our 2nd amendment so what about the felons or the mentally ill. Don't they have the right to protect themselves too? We have these restrictions because they protect us (or at least try) from the misuse of firearms.

I am in no way suggesting that people submit to 100s of hours of "tactical" training. All I'm saying is that people need to learn how to handle firearms safely. I know there are some responsible people who will go take courses even if not required. They do that out of personal responsibility but sadly these days personal responsibility and common sense is very lacking. If someone can't be bothered to learn how to handle a firearm safely because it's too "inconvenient" they shouldn't have a a gun. If someone is not competent enough they shouldn't have a gun.

Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin said it better than I can

 

[dunkel]

I don't need to produce that statistic because I didn't say that it made states that require them safer. I merely said it would help educate people.

I don't doubt that having a lot of restrictions on obtaining a carry permit will deter people from getting them. I followed the story on the reporter from DC and her book for a little bit.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt if people took safety courses prior to getting a permit.

You did, however, draw the comparison to driving training, did you not? If the implication was not that it would be similar to firearms training, why draw the comparison?

 

[mountainpass]

In the last oh 4-5 years.

South Carolina: There were two unrelated shootings by instructors(at least 1 was an LEO) in mandated training class that were non-life threatening.

Georgia: There were two unrelated shootings by instructors(both were POST certified) in LE training classes that both resulted in death.

 

[InitialKev]

InitialKev - no one here is arguing that people should be properly trained before owning or carrying a firearm. They are arguing that requiring training is contrary to the right to keep and bear arms being a right. No one ever argues that you should have to have training to birth a child. Yet from a practical standpoint, if you want to keep society safer, a license to have kids could go a long way towards that - you know - keep the idiots from having kids. But any mention of this (rightly) causes a huge uproar.

First it is a training requirement. Next a storage requirement. Then a limit on rounds. Then a limit on particular firearms. The "common sense" regulations just lead to more and more regulation. Georgia is going in the right direction, and hopefully will eliminate the license requirement someday.

And I do think that convicted felons should be allowed to own firearms once they have completed their sentence. And "mentally ill" can cover everything from anxiety disorders to violent sociopathic behavior, so their is a scale there.

Funny you mentioned license for having kids because I'm one of those people who believe there should be requirements to have kids. I deal with the public working retail and have seen a lot of people who shouldn't be reproducing. These days there are kids popping out kids left and right without a care in the world or have no clue of what it takes to raise a child and end up on government assistance because they don't make a "living" wage working at McDonalds and wants to get paid $15/hr to flip burgers. Whatever the hell happen to family planning or planned parenthood? My requirements would simply be things that a couple with a good head on their shoulders would consider when they plan to have a child.

I'm not going to get into this any further but watch the movie Idiocracy to see why I would feel this way.

My whole take on this is just to keep people who shouldn't have guns from getting guns in the first place, not limiting those who already have them. Hell I believe that responsible owners should be able to own full auto firearms and Class 3 items without having to going through all the hoops and pay a $200 tax stamp. I oppose "universal" background checks and bans on normal capacity or any capacity magazines or any of the proposed legislation. Obama's "common sense" is NOT common sense. Or maybe it is nowadays. When idiots become more common than well educated people, "common sense" becomes the opposite of what we know it as today...

I would hate for you or anyone reading this to be at a range with your family and the guy next to you do something stupid and have a negligent discharge and kills your wife, daughter, son or whoever was with you. And since you're on this board you wouldn't blame the gun. You would blame the idiot who was mishandling the gun. It may not happen but it only takes one time and unfortunately some people need have first hand experience to open their eyes.

 

[Cobalt 60]

Funny you mentioned license for having kids because I'm one of those people who believe there should be requirements to have kids. I deal with the public working retail and have seen a lot of people who shouldn't be reproducing. These days there are kids popping out kids left and right without a care in the world or have no clue of what it takes to raise a child and end up on government assistance because they don't make a "living" wage working at McDonalds and wants to get paid $15/hr to flip burgers. Whatever the hell happen to family planning or planned parenthood? My requirements would simply be things that a couple with a good head on their shoulders would consider when they plan to have a child.

I'm not going to get into this any further but watch the movie Idiocracy to see why I would feel this way.

My whole take on this is just to keep people who shouldn't have guns from getting guns in the first place, not limiting those who already have them. Hell I believe that responsible owners should be able to own full auto firearms and Class 3 items without having to going through all the hoops and pay a $200 tax stamp. I oppose "universal" background checks and bans on normal capacity or any capacity magazines or any of the proposed legislation. Obama's "common sense" is NOT common sense. Or maybe it is nowadays. When idiots become more common than well educated people, "common sense" becomes the opposite of what we know it as today...

I would hate for you or anyone reading this to be at a range with your family and the guy next to you do something stupid and have a negligent discharge and kills your wife, daughter, son or whoever was with you. And since you're on this board you wouldn't blame the gun. You would blame the idiot who was mishandling the gun. It may not happen but it only takes one time and unfortunately some people need have first hand experience to open their eyes.

Great movie!

Any time you go to a range or anywhere else there are firearms in the hands of others you are taking a risk. We can't eliminate all risk in this world, especially when we live in a country where we value liberty above all else.