Taco thinks chrome bore is to make for better shots. chrome bore diminishes accuracy. Easier to clean and maintain but harder to keep target accuracy
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Atlanta Police Issued ARs
- Thread starter SR Burton
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This may shed a little light on his qualifications
http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/243168-I-need-my-Ar-15-trigger-assembly-polished
If you can't handle doing light trigger work, you're damn sure not qualified to make a decision on what's suitable for LE!
Wait a second lets not put words in his mouth, I dont think he ever said that. (its 15 pgs long & I dont want to re-read the whole thing.) I want to give him a fair shake, and to be honest, I'd like to know what kind of AR he has, and what he has done w/ it. Range time, hunting etc, etc...
Stuff like this.may be relavent to those who know they will have a high.round count through auto guns or in a very short period. Also Noveske chrome lined barrels have a reputation for being quite accurate. A lesser compromise than a lot of barrels. Tell me what bushmaster does.to meet military specifications on their commericial guns? I have already mentioned what colt does, and noveske, and DD, and LMT, and BCM. Only the end user can determine if those things are important to them, but they do matter. A majority of those differences protect from catastrophic or premature failure. I have given you several differences to the rifles that i have deemed imoortant that are typically only found in what we call higher end guns, what have you shared about the so called lower end that shows anyrhing but the fact that they cost less. I understamd they can run for thousands of rounds, eat any ammo, and be malfuncrion free, but they are still lacking features that protect the end user. I personally value my life, my families life, and the life of those that my rifle may be used to protect enough to not chance it.
There is where you all keep having the difficulty understanding my point, no one is arguing that there are high end guns that are very accurate and reliable. But this discussion was about what a police officer needs. An average police officer isn't making long range precision shots, they are not typically running full auto, they are not putting 25000 rounds a year through them.
Why should a patrol officer spend the extra money when colt or M&P have proven to be more than reliable and plenty accurate for their intended uses? It's not about what noveske does and bushmaster doesn't its about what each police officer or department deems fit. As was said before 400 may not seem like a lot to you but an officer working two or three jobs just to get by 400 is a lot of money, it's a lot for a department with 100 officers to spend an extra 400 on each rifle.
If you are a police officer and can buy any rifle you want then go ahead and buy whatever YOU want but this crap about not trusting a colt or M&P is stupid, show me where out of all the law enforcement agencies in this country who is issuing noveske or larue.
Why should a patrol officer spend the extra money when colt or M&P have proven to be more than reliable and plenty accurate for their intended uses? It's not about what noveske does and bushmaster doesn't its about what each police officer or department deems fit. As was said before 400 may not seem like a lot to you but an officer working two or three jobs just to get by 400 is a lot of money, it's a lot for a department with 100 officers to spend an extra 400 on each rifle.
If you are a police officer and can buy any rifle you want then go ahead and buy whatever YOU want but this crap about not trusting a colt or M&P is stupid, show me where out of all the law enforcement agencies in this country who is issuing noveske or larue.
Part of the issue I am having is somehow Colt keeps ending up in the wrong category, Colt is not at the Bushmaster level, it is at the DD,LMT,Noveske, BCM level.
Thanks for clarifying your point. My single best response is 1. If the officer has the choice that means it is their personal weapon, round count would be individual, and 2. If the officer has the choice, why not mitigate as much risk as possible? If the department has the choice, they must evaluate the same factors as well as their liability/cost/ risk management plan in case of malfunction/ lawsuit/ etc.
And I agree M&P's are BY FAR the best of the cheaper priced rifles. I would say there is no doubt. They are performers no doubt. Troys rifle is available at a great price, but has no track record. They also seem to meet most of the TDP from what I recall.
Just as a side note, you have been mixing up Noveske chrome lined and SS barrels throughout your posts which makes it hard to address. There is a difference in both price and purpose. I would venture to agree that a Noveske SS barrel does not offer a single thing to a patrol officer.
Additionally with a competent armorer (which departments may or may not have) you can mitigate much of the risk prevented by higher end rifles through frequent checks, you decide which is easier.
Also, since when have all departments been deemed fit to decide what is appropriate. I can tell you of one department that has inadequate choice of duty ammunition that was chosen for the wrong reasons. But I digress.
I know of one agencies Tac team that is running thousands of rounds per rifle per year, is that barrel worth it to them? I don't know, and unless they track maintenance round count, etc either will they. I also know that not all of these things happen.
Thanks for clarifying your point. My single best response is 1. If the officer has the choice that means it is their personal weapon, round count would be individual, and 2. If the officer has the choice, why not mitigate as much risk as possible? If the department has the choice, they must evaluate the same factors as well as their liability/cost/ risk management plan in case of malfunction/ lawsuit/ etc.
And I agree M&P's are BY FAR the best of the cheaper priced rifles. I would say there is no doubt. They are performers no doubt. Troys rifle is available at a great price, but has no track record. They also seem to meet most of the TDP from what I recall.
Just as a side note, you have been mixing up Noveske chrome lined and SS barrels throughout your posts which makes it hard to address. There is a difference in both price and purpose. I would venture to agree that a Noveske SS barrel does not offer a single thing to a patrol officer.
Additionally with a competent armorer (which departments may or may not have) you can mitigate much of the risk prevented by higher end rifles through frequent checks, you decide which is easier.
Also, since when have all departments been deemed fit to decide what is appropriate. I can tell you of one department that has inadequate choice of duty ammunition that was chosen for the wrong reasons. But I digress.
I know of one agencies Tac team that is running thousands of rounds per rifle per year, is that barrel worth it to them? I don't know, and unless they track maintenance round count, etc either will they. I also know that not all of these things happen.
Your right about departments not always making the best decisions but the ones that make very wrong choices are fewer and farther between. And do the sake of this discussion I haven't been including SWAT/ TAC teams because their needs are different that a normal patrol officer.
My comments on the barrels were half in mock tactical taco because he bragged about noveskes barrels but could explain how a patrol officer making mostly sub 100 yard shots and putting less than 2k rounds a year through it needed some fancy barrel.
I think colt and M&P ended up together based on price and availability.
And I agree that a proper maintenance and inspection schedule should be done on any rifle to avoid failures.
My comments on the barrels were half in mock tactical taco because he bragged about noveskes barrels but could explain how a patrol officer making mostly sub 100 yard shots and putting less than 2k rounds a year through it needed some fancy barrel.
I think colt and M&P ended up together based on price and availability.
And I agree that a proper maintenance and inspection schedule should be done on any rifle to avoid failures.
I wanna see tactical tacos noveski.
Thanks Trent,
That is the range I'm hearing shots from. That makes sense, a lot of rapid fire going on.
2000 rounds? If you're putting 2000 rounds a year through your duty weapon that you carry to protect your life with on a daily basis, you're already doing it wrong. Most cops I've met shoot almost 10x that number in a year. Never mind Noveske also doesn't allow even slightly questionable parts from the shop to go on their rifles before being shipped out. Did you also fail the 9th grade like Soviet? Or do we need to go over all of this again for other reasons, such as ignorance?
I've been shooting for years. I've seen gas keys come unstaked in Bushmasters, I've seen locking lugs break after 300 rounds, I've seen ejectors crack on a brand new M&P upper, bolts sheering on M&P's as well. It's not about "what works good enough" when your life is on the line. Two way ranges don't allow you to take a break, go home, order new parts and come back. Novekse understands this, they have a business model built on high end quality, and it works for their niche market, being people who shoot on a weekly basis and learning the weapon, not just plinking.
This debate has been nothing more than you guys putting words in my mouth since I came in here, which is always an entertaining gesture of ignorance when you have no real basis to back up your claims with. I've backed mine up, it's proven, it's mechanics, it's science. Go do some research for yourself, go to 3gun nation, go to M4carbine.net, 2 websites home to thousands of people who have shot more in the past week than most of us do in a year.
Don't like websites? Go take a side by side comparison of the two, and maybe learn to understand things a little better. The attention to detail in which Novekse and other brands build their rifles are on an entirely different level from rifles meant to draw in new shooters. S&W, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, all of their marketing is directed toward new and inexperienced shooters. I'm not expecting any of you to understand basic business concepts, so don't worry if it doesn't sink in.
When you look at the marketing platform Larue, LMT, Noveske and KAC all have, they're not trying to get joe shmoe who just turned 19 and getting into rifles to purchase their product. They know what experienced shooters want and need, and they give it to them in an unmatched form of quality parts and craftsmanship. If you want to really keep this thread going, we can go in circles all day.
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