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WMSproject

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I have read many articles in the last few years concerning cases of police shooting suspects. Many of the shootings are justified on the basis that the suspect refused to obey orders. I wonder when it became acceptable to shoot somebody for NOT doing something. It is my opinion that lethal force should not be used unless the officer or someone at the scene is in danger of being injured or killed by the suspect.

In many of the cases, the police start yelling orders. Sometimes multiple officers are yelling contradicting orders at the top of their voices. When the person fails to obey the orders, the officer or officers open fire. In many of the cases, the person is far enough away not to be an immediate threat to anyone and may be armed with only a knife or close quarters weapon. Sometimes they are not even armed at all. Other times the person may be holding a firearm but are not displaying it in a threatening manner.

Sometimes the person may be mentally distraught, autistic, intoxicated or otherwise unable to hear or obey the orders to obey. The current application of deadly force or a taser seems to be that if the person fails to obey a yelled order, then shoot them, then do the paperwork. Everybody but the suspect goes home to their families.

A recent article even talked about an officer who tased a nude autistic 12 year old girl who was walking down the street, smiling, oblivious to what was going on around her. She ignored commands to stop so the officer immediately tazed her. What happened to getting a blanket, walking up to her, covering her up and talking calmly to her? What happened to humanity and kindness? Just taze the Mother ****ing little retard girl...

A recent shooting of a mentally ill person with a knife, alone on a trolley car in Toronto, has sparked protests and I think rightly so. The police shot and killed the suspect from a safe distance without trying any de-escalating techniques. They did not try to talk the person down, did not try to calm the person, etc. They only yelled orders at the person at the top of their voice. When he did not obey immediately, they opened fire. At no time were any of the police in danger from the person.

I think it is time for a dialog on how to de-escalate a police standoff instead of yelling at the suspect. In many instances, the person may be mentally challenged, autistic, deaf, intoxicated or otherwise unable to obey. Yell and shoot techniques will most likely result in the death of the suspect under currently used techniques. What ever happened to the police trying to coax the person, talk to them, reason with them, talking in a calm way? What happened to trying to talk them down? What happened to our respect of human life, even that of a suspected criminal?

I've heard this excuse many times used after a shooting, "He refused to obey, I felt threatened, I thought he might do something... so I opened fire."

I think there is no excuse for this type of attitude and that these shootings are sometimes, if not often, unjustified. Pardon me if you disagree but I want to have a honest, calm dialog on the subject without "Yelling", "Cursing", "Blasting", "Attitude", etc. The goal of this discussion should be about how to diffuse a dangerous situation rather than end it quickly with bloodshed.

Fire away!!!
 
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The desensitizing and militarization of the police force. When it's time to fully turn on the sheeple to corral them there will be little hesitation by LE. The good cops are getting older.

Just like that author (sorry don't recall his name) states, if you equip someone with military style equipment they will tend to act military-esc. Also you are getting soldiers from IRQ and AFG joining the force so when told to treat sheeple like insurgents, it's fairly simple to do.

Remember cops are trained in every encounter they initiate to project power/force (they are in control) and that, that person is guilty until proven innocent. The cops are not talking to you or stopping you to see how your day is going, they are having an encounter with you because they believe your going to commit, have committed or are in the act of committing a crime.

I hate the, "you haven't walked in their shoes", "if it's so easy, come sign up and do it", "as long as one LEO makes it home that night then it's a good thing", " you weren't there so you don't know what the perp did". etc etc etc

But remember I'm an LEO hater here on the ODT so don't pay me any mind.

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To answer your question, I do not believe they are trained that way.
 
I grew up behind the Iron Curtain. I was taught to fear the police,and for a good reason. It seems that in the last 15-18 years,US cops are behaving more and more like my childhood cops.
I agree with OP, if there is a cop-initiated shooting, they always get off scott-free, no matter how outrageous it seems to an outside observer. If there is a civilian-initiated shooting, it takes a miracle and a lot of money for a civilian to stay out of jail.
 
Label me what you want. I'm not a LEO hater but I'm slowly becoming one. I'm desperately looking for a reason to maintain my faith in law enforcement. I really only see them as armed tax collectors and executioners, not as protectors or crime fighters or crime solvers. I do think there are a lot of former military joining the police force or becoming law enforcement trainers. These guys have a kill and ask questions later mentality that is engrained in them from the military. That might be just fine in a battlefield but we are not a battlefield yet.

My gut tells me that if police continue on this path of escalation, then the other side of their encounters will just escalate as well. Sooner or later it will spin out of control. People will just assume that the police will kill them sooner than talk to them if they ever encounter them. When that happens, whoever gets the first shot off will go home to their families. Simple as that.

I know there are lots of decent caring officers out there. I've met plenty of them and would like to meet more. I recently met a swat captain from Nassau County NY. He was an awesome guy and fun to be around but he was the gung ho type who looked forward to armed conflict so he could put a guy in the ground. Just looking for an excuse. How could a guy be so fun and such a good guy but looking forward to killing somebody if he got the chance? I don't understand it at all.

I have a close friend who escaped from Communist North Vietnam when he was 16. It took him three tries to get out of the country. The first two times he was caught, jailed and tortured. He was so happy to finally be in a free country where he did not have to face this kind of treatment. He has seen the country go from one of freedom and liberty to a police state... All in just 40 years of so. He is so disgusted with what he sees and wants out again... he just doesn't have any place to run to anymore. America WAS the last best hope.
 
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WMSproject said:
I have read many articles in the last few years concerning...
"Articles"? Written by just exactly who? The same media experts who tell us how many gun owners want registration? Seriously; the 'news media' is largely as accurate as movies when describing factual events and happenings.


There are some pretty sad occurrences around the world, and in the U. S. I have a very suspicious view of big cities in general. Several of the shootings in NYC within the past decade are very sloppy at best. The Los Angeles Police Department and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office are both renown for their brutality under 'normal conditions' - and rather sloppy shooting incidents and investigations.

On the other hand, I saw the live feed shooting of a man in San Diego (around 1980 or so). He was standing in downtown San Diego, holding a Ruger Target pistol in his strong hand, leaning on a building and watching people. Police were dispatched - people tend to call and complain - and the officers involved spoke with the man for some period of time attempting to just find out what the man was doing. He was unresponsive. He saw the officers, glared at them - as I say, I was watching the live feed at the time - but refused to talk at all.

They asked his name, what he was doing, what he wanted, told him to put the pistol down (reasonable under the circumstances) and all the 'normal' conversational ploys. (I don't believe they asked him his 'sign'.) He simply would not speak.

That is a dangerous indicator, whether others recognize it or not.

Finally, the man stood up from his leaning position, again glared at the police officers and squared his body against them - faced them directly. When his right shoulder moved indicating the pistol was being raised, they shot him. He was immediately taken to hospital; as I recall, he died from his wounds.

That shooting was reviewed for months. The officers were exonerated of wrong-doing, but the 'civic action groups' drug it around for ever.

The Amadou Diallo shooting was a horrible mess. Not only did the NYPD shoot an unarmed man - the fellow who presented a wallet in dim light - BUT two of the officers involved were shooting PAST the heads of officers in front of them. The after-action diagrams present a scene from a Marx Brothers movie but without the clever dialog or humor. The whole approach, challenge and response of those four officers was incompetent in the least. And yes, New York City covered it up as a tragic but unavoidable error.

The events you mention are rather vague and have the aspect of '... well, I heard...' to them.

Your comments about the tazing of the autistic 12 year old girl demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. She was unresponsive; that is, when spoken to, she completely ignored the officer attempting to communicate with her. So your suggestion is to speak gently? She wasn't responding at all. I can tell you are unaware, but that 'oblivion' to others is an indicator of serious danger in such encounters. Being nude is an indicator of PCP use. You want the officer to magically produce a blanket and drape the young lady? Why? So you can then accuse the officer of being a pervert and child molester?

Enough. You are not going to reason with anyone on this. You have your self-righteous stance and cannot back down without seeming inadequate in your own mind.

My comments are for anyone else reading who will look at the reality and see you really don't know the subject.
 
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Your comments about the tazing of the autistic 12 year old girl demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. She was unresponsive; that is, when spoken to, she completely ignored the officer attempting to communicate with her. So your suggestion is to speak gently? She wasn't responding at all. I can tell you are unaware, but that 'oblivion' to others is an indicator of serious danger in such encounters. Being nude is an indicator of PCP use. You want the officer to magically produce a blanket and drape the young lady? Why? So you can then accuse the officer of being a pervert and child molester? ..........................

You have your self-righteous stance and cannot back down without seeming inadequate in your own mind.

Clearly you are one of those so called "self righteous" people and have never dealt with an autistic child before........

and just to save myself the infraction, ***********************************************! and just to clarify, feel free to insert any phrase or statement there that would piss you off the most.


or maybe your account falls under this:

http://intellihub.com/2013/08/09/us...ocial-media-running-mass-propaganda-accounts/
 
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I was not going to comment on this thread but I feel compelled to..I Am LEO and also a Combat Medic in Nam, My Job was to save lives not kill them..I now teach LEO on multiple courses and Use of Deadly Force and how to De-escalate after a problem is under control..There are bad in all walks of life, I am sorry so many people feel like some do on here..I'm done DD
 
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