Revocable Living Trust attachment (Schedule A and Assignment of Property) question

[Rob62]

I have a couple of questions that are not discussed a lot in reference to BATFE paperwork - Living Revocable Living Trust’s (RLT). If these questions have already been asked and answered I’d appreciate the link to them.

RLT’s have a Schedule A (aka, appendix/annex/attachment) that lists all the property contained in that Trust. At what exact point in time does one add an item to their Schedule A if either:

1. You are making the item yourself, for the sake of this discussion let’s say you are shortening the barrel of a rifle and creating an SBR via Form 1.

2. You are purchasing an already made SBR via a Form 4.

My understanding is that in *BOTH* cases you would put the actual item by serial number on the Schedule A *PRIOR* to sending off the tax stamp paperwork to BATFE for approval (which would include a copy of that Schedule A with the item already on it).

The next question has to do with the “Assignment of Property” attachment part of the RLT. It is basically the same as the previous – at what exact point in time does one assign the property to their RLT with an Assignment of Property attachment to the RLT? This is what I am really confused on. I *think* it is done prior to sending off the Tax stamp paperwork but in the case of a Form 4 item it seems wrong for some reason.

Your experiences, thoughts, opinions?

Regards,

Rob

 

[tjkane1]

Rob,

I'm going through the process right now and the best information I have is that you would wait to list the items on your Schedule A.

The reasoning is that until you have your tax stamp(approval) in hand you are not allow to possess an NFA item. By listing it on the sch. A you are legally stating that the item has been assigned to your trust. Essentially admitting you are in possession of a unapproved NFA item.

I think if you wanted to add your non sbr rifle you would be ok. But it can't be listed as an sbr until you get your stamp.
By applying for the stamp, you are notifying the BATF that you want that item assigned to your trust. Once approved, it's already been added to their records.
I believe if you make a PERMANENT change to the configuration of your sbr you should notify the BATF.

While using logic when dealing with the govt. might be risky, in this case I believe it just makes good sense.
Don't assign something to your trust if you don't legally own it yet.

As far as "assignment of property" attachment, I have no idea.

I'm not a laywer, I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express and I am new to the whole NFA thing. Hopefully, someone with more experience chimes in.

 

[Rob62]

Without going into all the nuances and after a bunch of interesting discussions. Here is what I have come to believe and understand.

Everything (Form 1 or Form 4 items) has to be listed on the Schedule A prior to sending off the paperwork to BATFE for approval. Which I know makes no sense - after all how can the Trust (me/I) own the item already if I (RLT) am asking permission to own the item through the application of the tax stamp. I have been going around and around with this concept and keep coming back to it making not a lot of sense, its just the way it is. In some crazy mixxed up world I do understand the point though. (What is REALLY messing with my mind are the Form 4 items - yes I have paid for the item prior to sending off the Form 4 - but I do not have physical possession of the item until the tax stamp comes back - so do I "really" own it without the approved tax stamp - technically no because there is no tax stamp that says I do - see what drives me crazy)

Here is a copy of the verbiage of my RLT and I suspect most RLT's have very similar verbiage. (With this specific verbiage I can understand how BATFE would want to see the item listed in my Schedule A prior to approving the stamp - still does not make a whole lot of sense but I do see it). Obviously if somone else's RLT has other verbiage it may be totally different with BATFE approving their tax stamp.

Part 2. Declaration of Trust,

Rob62 (just used in the example - my actual name is on the real RLT) called the grantor, declares that he has transferred and delivered to the trustee all his interest in the property described in Schedule A attached to this Declaration of Trust. All of the property is called the “trust property”. The trustee hereby acknowledges receipt of the trust property and agrees to hold the trust property in trust, according to this Declaration of Trust. The grantor may add property to the trust.

I hope all this is clear as mud to anyone reading this thread.

Regards,
Rob

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

Rob,

Your trust does not actually own the items on your form 1 or 4 until you receive the approved stamps back, therefore they should NOT be listed on your Schedule A until you have ATF approval. Once they have been tranferred via the respective forms, then they HAVE to be on the schedule A.

In the case of a form 1, you could list the rifle or lower in the trust if you wanted to, but it would still be a title I, plain jane rifle. NOT an SBR, as you are not allowed to make it into an SBR until BATFE says you can. If you wanted to put it in the trust, you would say "Bushmaster XM-15 RIFLE, Serial Number XXXXXX" Then when you get the approved form 4 you would edit it to SBR.

In the case of the form 4, your trust doesn't own the item until it has been lawfully transferred to your trust per BATFE rules. Even if you paid for it, it is not legally yours until the dealer or individual completes the lawful transfer, which means an approved form 4 must be in hand. Therefore, putting it on your schedule A would be inaccurate, as the trust does NOT in fact own it YET.


The verbiage you posted is still correct, but you are in the process of completing it. With NFA items, its not a fast process though. You can't just assign the property instantly to the trust if it is an NFA controlled item.

 

[ugagrad04]

Don't put the NFA items in the Schedule A, however you do have to have "something" in the Schedule A to make the trust valid. Your TV, couch, dinner plate, candle, lamp etc etc it doesn't really matter what you put in Schedule A just so long as it's not the NFA items you are "making" or buying.

 

[Rob62]

QRF - That's exactly what I thought before I got the letter from the BATFE telling me I neeeded to have the item listed on my Schedule A, and them wanting a copy of it **prior** to approvaing my tax stamp. All very, very confusing.

And there is no doubt that someone else out there has been informed by BATFE officials that items can not be listed on their Schedule A prior to the tax stamp getting approved.

And my final point is that the NFA and to a lesser degree GCA '68 make some aspects of firearms ownership confusing at best.

Rob

 

[tjkane1]

Rob,
Not that I would wish any extra problems for anyone else, but I do hope you are wrong on this one because I just mailed my Form 4 without listing the silencer on my sched A.
I'm gonna have to put my faith in QRF, if for no other reason that he deals with this stuff all the time. Maybe a quick call to the BATF branch would be the way to go. QRF might have a number of the people who actually approve the paperwork.

 

[Rob62]

tjkane1 - All I can report is what happened to me. And I got the BATFE letter, now I am still waiting on the Form 1 to be approved. Hopefully it only takes a couple more weeks at worst to get it returned.

 

[Quiet Riot Firearms]

Rob, can you scan that letter and post it? I'd like to read it as that is the exact opposite of logic and past direction from lawyers and the ATF. Redact whatever is necessary.

Every approval I've ever heard of or seen with my own eyes, the person has NOT listed the item on their schedule A. This is because they either:
A. Cannot LEGALLY make that firearm yet
or
B. Do not own it yet as the transfer has not been completed.

 

[Rob62]

QRF - wish I could and in hindsight I really should have made a copy of it. However I sent it back with the new Schedule A.