Trigger upgrades in a SD carry gun

[spencer60]

Harold Fish was ultimately acquitted (charges dropped). He spent a minimum amount of time in jail. He wasn't even jailed during the 2 years waiting for trial. FWIW, I've read the entire transcript of the Fish trial.

You and Ayoob have come up with two cases - in both the "accuseds" were ultimately acquitted. Hardly a sound basis for arguing about liability.

The real issue was the massive costs of mounting the defense. Fish died broke. But that's an entirely different issue - any number of "good shoots" have incurred similar cost, Geo. Zimmerman being the one the most quickly comes to mind. Zimmerman shot Martin with a cheap, stock gun - what's the lesson from that -don't carry cheap stock guns?

I have a S&W 686 Performance Center model It has the "PC tuned action". It has a high visibility sight. I guess I should leave it in the sock drawer.

BTW, the jury in the Fish case said they were more disturbed about his use of hollowpoints, about which the prosecutor made a big deal. So if we are going to run scared, we all need to trade in the latest Gee Whiz HP for some FMJ, or maybe just old school lead SWC (which were standard police issue in many depts. when I started shooting).

So the issue really is should you be insured, how much, what risks. I encourage everyone to talk to a knowledgable insurance agent about an umbrella policy.

Fish was released after serving roughly 3 years (2006 - 2009), when his case was overturned on appeal, and I'm not arguing liability... that would be a civil case. I'm arguing criminal prosecution.

I do agree though that the cost of defending yourself against criminal charges is insane. That's why it's a completely different environment for LEO than it is for average citizens.

However the fact that Zimmerman used a cheap stock gun is educational, since it never came up as an issue in trial, and the prosecutors admitted they 'tore the gun apart' looking for any kind of modification. The lesson is that if you are in 'the trial of the century', don't give the prosecutor anything they can use against you.

As for your 686, if S&W will come to your trail and testify that the gun they shipped was appropriate for use in self defense, and that you didn't modify it from the factory state, then feel free to use it. We both know sights are irrelevant (unless you removed them completely).

My point is that if you decide to do a little 'cleanup' on the trigger work they did at the Performance Center, you just gave a potential prosecutor an in, and removed S&W from your side of the argument. Carry it if you want to, and you think you can convince a jury that you personally have enough knowledge and experience to change the way the factory set the gun up.

And yes, Fish was about both the caliber (10mm) and the bullet design (HP).

These days this is an easy one to articulate though. All police departments use HP bullets, even in NJ. This is easily documented and Mas mentioned doing it once in court by simply asking the bailiffs what kind of ammo they carried.

The key thing than anyone involved with self defense law as practiced will tell you is that prosecutors come up with some amazing things to throw at the wall. You need to be ready for this and close off as many avenues as possible before anything happens, because it's way too late afterwards.

I'll bet if you told Harold Fish that he would spend 3 years in prison for carrying a 10mm, he might have just opted for a 1911 instead.

 

[cmshoot]

Not at all. A flashlight isn't going to make your 870 into a 'more efficient killing machine' as the prosecutor in Alvarez put it. In fact it would be easy to argue that it helped make it safer. And I don't think any jury would worry about a sling... it makes it look like a 'nice' hunting rifle if anything.

I would get rid of the bayonet though...

A flashlight dang sure DOES make the 870 a more efficient killing machine! The better I can see the target, the more efficient it is. So, yes, a lawyer could bring up the fact that you had a flashlight on your weapon and use it against you.

 

[cmshoot]

I asked this earlier and no one bothered to answer it: if you are so worried about being sued and dying broke, why are you carrying a firearm in the first place? Several of you have said that anything you do/have will get an attorney on you, and are questioning why would someone add to that list. If you don’t carry a firearm, there isn’t a list to begin with. It seems you are placing after-the-fact liability as the most important consideration on your list, so not being armed would fix that nicely.

 

[cmshoot]

Ayoob is one guy. Like I said earlier, I can trot out a lot list of Instructors that have been doing this as long as or longer than Ayoob who are advocates of upgrading your trigger. Ken Hackathorn, who was traveling the world as an Instructor when Ayoob was still in school, has a very good theory about the weight of the handgun vs the weight of the trigger when it comes to shootability and accuracy.

Another question that myself and others have asked here that no one has bothered to answer: what if I buy a pistol that has a custom trigger from the manufacturer? Handguns like a Wilson Combat Beretta or Glock, or an M&P straight from the S&W Custom Shop with an Apex trigger in it? Do these guns have the same liability attached as one that is upgraded AFTER purchase?

 

[cmshoot]

It has been said here more than once that a trigger upgrade is fine on a hunting or competition gun, but not on one intended for self-defense. That is one of the most backwards statements I have ever heard!

Y’all are saying a trigger upgraded isn’t needed, but it’s okay for hunting and competition. If it’s okay in those scenarios, why are guys doing it? Because it makes for a more accurate shot and gives the shooter an edge. Full stop. That’s the only reason we upgrade triggers. So, you’re saying it’s okay to give yourself an edge over your adversary when your life IS NOT on the line, but it’s not okay to give yourself an edge when YOUR LIFE is at stake!?

You miss a shot hunting, you go home without meat and/or a trophy. That’s all.....come back tomorrow and try it again. You miss some important shots in competition, you don’t win a trophy or a trip to the prize table. You miss a shot while protecting your life, or those of your loved ones, during a deadly force situation and what could happen? You die. Your loved ones die. Your errant shot strikes an innocent bystander. You’re worried about liability over a trigger upgrade, how bad do you think the liability you have incurred will be if you hit an innocent bystander?

Folks are placing important tools in the wrong scenario.

 

[Bear44]

Same here. If you can't defend yourself properly with a stock trigger, then the problem isn't the gun, it's you. haha

Ever used a firearm when your life was actually on the line?

If you had, you would realize how completely different that situation is compared to punching paper at the range. I've seen guys that could draw and double tap in the A zone of a target at five yards in less than a second and a half during practice that would completely miss the target with at least one of those two rounds during competition. The stress of competition is nothing compared to the stress of a real world encounter.

 

[SirBannedAlot]

It has been said here more than once that a trigger upgrade is fine on a hunting or competition gun, but not on one intended for self-defense. That is one of the most backwards statements I have ever heard!

Y’all are saying a trigger upgraded isn’t needed, but it’s okay for hunting and competition. If it’s okay in those scenarios, why are guys doing it? Because it makes for a more accurate shot and gives the shooter an edge. Full stop. That’s the only reason we upgrade triggers. So, you’re saying it’s okay to give yourself an edge over your adversary when your life IS NOT on the line, but it’s not okay to give yourself an edge when YOUR LIFE is at stake!?

You miss a shot hunting, you go home without meat and/or a trophy. That’s all.....come back tomorrow and try it again. You miss some important shots in competition, you don’t win a trophy or a trip to the prize table. You miss a shot while protecting your life, or those of your loved ones, during a deadly force situation and what could happen? You die. Your loved ones die. Your errant shot strikes an innocent bystander. You’re worried about liability over a trigger upgrade, how bad do you think the liability you have incurred will be if you hit an innocent bystander?

Folks are placing important tools in the wrong scenario.

Some of us, including many instructors feel that in a fight for your life at close range, the trigger is almost irrelevant.

If you need a custom trigger to hit your target, you bought the wrong gun. Or you need to practice more. Take your pick...

 

[cmshoot]

Some of us, including many instructors feel that in a fight for your life at close range, the trigger is almost irrelevant.

If you need a custom trigger to hit your target, you bought the wrong gun. Or you need to practice more. Take your pick...

And many, many Instructors feel that the trigger is the interface between the shooter and the firearm. If that link isn’t as good as it could be, accuracy will suffer. You already stated that trigger upgrades are fine for hunting and competition. Why would a hunter or competitor need and upgraded trigger if the factory is good enough?

And the fight ain’t always going to be at close range......and folks still miss at close range. In my notes and information that I’ve collected over the years was one on a gunfight inside an elevator. Both subjects armed with a J-frame, 5-shot, .38Spl revolver. A total of 10 rounds fired and no one was hit.

An upgraded trigger may not hurt or help you at close distance, but will help you at longer distance. A stock trigger is fine at close distance, but could be a detriment at distance. That means the upgraded trigger works better all around.

Anyone thinks I can’t shoot and that I need gunsmith magic to hit the target is welcome to show up at any of my classes. We’ll shoot a few rounds together, and I’ll use my duty gun: a stock SIG P229 .357SIG DA/SA, with full-power duty loads. When it’s all over with, we’ll leave and hang out, and the loser can buy the beer.

 

[cmshoot]

Some of us, including many instructors feel that in a fight for your life at close range, the trigger is almost irrelevant.

If you need a custom trigger to hit your target, you bought the wrong gun. Or you need to practice more. Take your pick...

You a motorcycle racer? Any “upgrades” on that bike?

 

[Glockadopoulos]

. We’ll shoot a few rounds together, and I’ll use my duty gun: a stock SIG P229 .357SIG DA/SA, with full-power duty loads. When it’s all over with, we’ll leave and hang out, and the loser can buy the beer.

Not trying to be a smart ass, but why is your duty gun stock? Department policy? If so, why do they have policy against upgrades?