Trigger upgrades in a SD carry gun

[MRH]

Wow...This thread really opened a can. I appreciate all of the insight from so many. I am going to have to go back and read them all to get caught up.

Both sides of the argument make sense, but after reading many responses disagreeing with Ayoob's take on it, along with the argument that convictions over a trigger job are non existent, to our knowledge, it may not be a game changer if one clearly acted in Self-defense. That's the real key here, after all.

I think Mas was really trying to give his best honest advice, and his personal experience is his yardstick for giving advice. Same here with cmshoot whose opinion I always appreciate. The counter of saying that we're accountable for every shot and making certain we hit where we aim is a good one. It is also true that I don't know of any officer who has ever been convicted because of using a non issued gun, or ammunition...In his book, "Guns, bullets and gunfights", Jim Cirillo admits he and his partner both stepped outside of dept protocols during their time in the NYPD stakeout squad...He also made clear that this was back in the early 70's and did not recommend doing this today. He was also a close friend to Mas Ayoob.

Makes me wonder why more PD's don't upgrade their triggers...And because they don't, makes this rabbit hole go even deeper.

I want to point out this interview again, in case anyone missed it, with Fla attorney Mark Seiden. It is a little bit lengthy, but a good read. He is very experienced in these cases, and agrees with Mas Ayoob.
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/do...al/621-attorney-reflects-on-gun-modifications

 

[gh1950]

As for your 686, if S&W will come to your trail and testify that the gun they shipped was appropriate for use in self defense, and that you didn't modify it from the factory state, then feel free to use it. We both know sights are irrelevant (unless you removed them completely).

Another question that myself and others have asked here that no one has bothered to answer: what if I buy a pistol that has a custom trigger from the manufacturer? Handguns like a Wilson Combat Beretta or Glock, or an M&P straight from the S&W Custom Shop with an Apex trigger in it? Do these guns have the same liability attached as one that is upgraded AFTER purchase?

No, because you just know that all those people are going to show up at the trial to explain something. I put a short stroke trigger from Wilson on a Beretta 92, he sells the part DYI with instructions. He also sell the same gun with the same trigger. I guess him plugging in the same part is mo' better than me plugging in the same part.

I put a Cougar mainspring in a Beretta Px4. It's plug and play. Wilson will do the same thing, Doing this one modification makes the gun considerably more shootable. Guess it's back in the sock drawer for it.

I don't even want to talk about the sweet Model 19 that Jim Stroh of Alpha Precision modified or tuned up in every way possible. Jim can't come to trial, because he's passed. The DA trigger pull is about half that of a factory one, and as noted above, makes the shooter considerably more accurate. For the life of me I can't see any one going to trial and saying, "yes, I wish I were shooing a less accurate gun."

BTW if all this scares you into shooting only factory stock guns (whatever they are), make sure you drive the speed limit or lower at all times. If you are ever sued because of an automobile accident, the first thing you will be asked is how fast you were going, and you will hear about it for the rest of trial, regardless of how relevant that fact is to the case.

 

[MRH]

What you buy something like a SIG X-Carry. It’s been made a more effective killing machine at the factory.

In this attorney interview with Mark Seider, who specializes in these cases, he makes it clear that factory jobs are nothing to worry about. Only if you do it yourself, or have someone do it outside of factory.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/do...al/621-attorney-reflects-on-gun-modifications

 

[gh1950]

Makes me wonder why more PD's don't upgrade their triggers...And because they don't, makes this rabbit hole go even deeper.

Because they (or the government that pays the bills) are too cheap to do it. Same reason they shoot Glops, which has known accidental discharge issues. Glop makes them a deal the government can't refuse, they don't sell them a better gun.

Some PD's have competition teams, or marksmanship unit. Check out their guns.

I used to shoot a PPC style competition locally. At the regional shoot, the Wilkes County SO would wipe the board. They were all shooting high end 1911's with every modification Clarke, Wilson or anyone else sold. Those were their duty guns.

 

[crippen]

In this attorney interview with Mark Seider, who specializes in these cases, he makes it clear that factory jobs are nothing to worry about. Only if you do it yourself, or have someone do it outside of factory.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/do...al/621-attorney-reflects-on-gun-modifications

Lol I have one of each. So silly.

 

[gh1950]

In this attorney interview with Mark Seider, who specializes in these cases, he makes it clear that factory jobs are nothing to worry about. Only if you do it yourself, or have someone do it outside of factory.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/do...al/621-attorney-reflects-on-gun-modifications

Yep, and he still is only able to cite one case, the Alvarez case. If it was such an established principal of law, there should be more than one case in the last century.

I would think that someone who "specializes in these cases" could pull more than one from his files.

 

[cmshoot]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but why is your duty gun stock? Department policy? If so, why do they have policy against upgrades?

It’s policy. Most agencies have that policy, not because of liability, but because they don’t know who might be the person doing the “upgrades”. An upgraded trigger done properly by someone that knows what they’re doing, is an improvement. One done by someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing can make the weapon less reliable.

Basically, same reason police cars have to be worked on at the agency garage.

My SIG P229 duty gun does have a Short Reset Trigger, which a modification developed by SIG. Not all our guns have it, but some of us have requested it and they’re installed by agency armorers......of which I am one.

 

[cmshoot]

In this attorney interview with Mark Seider, who specializes in these cases, he makes it clear that factory jobs are nothing to worry about. Only if you do it yourself, or have someone do it outside of factory.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/do...al/621-attorney-reflects-on-gun-modifications

What’s the difference between buying a Beretta 92 from Wilson Combat with their upgraded fire control parts in it, or buying those parts yourself and putting them in an otherwise stock Beretta 92? What if a Beretta Armorer (I’m one of those, as well) installs the Wilson parts after it leaves the factory?

 

[cmshoot]

It’s threads like this that reinforce the utter contempt and disgust I have with the vast majority of lawyers. They’ve got decent, law-abiding folks afraid to defend themselves in the best ways possible.

 

[spencer60]

Don't know if I'll catch all the points made, but here goes...

On the 'why carry' front, I'd argue it's better to be broke than dead. However I'm going to do whatever it takes to try and avoid both outcomes. I'll carry every place I can do so legally, but since I'm not LEO I'll also do everything that I can to make a prosecutors job hard if I ever have to use it.

And while Mas is just one guy, I think that vast majority of the leading instructors and legal experts would agree with him. Below is a link to the ACLDN page where they talk about modifications. At the bottom is a whole slew of comments from various well known instructors.

I don't think anyone is arguing that an upgraded trigger isn't a 'good thing' in general, whether it's for hunting or self defense. And again, people with cmshoot's credentials can probably articulate that to a jury. But he needs to realize that the rest of us don't have that same kind of legal armor plating. Is the reduction of 1lb off a Glock 19 trigger worth opening up a can of worms if it ever comes up at trial?

I think it was Andrew Branca who said a good rule is to only change a carry gun if the person who did that change will testify for you in court... and actually help your case. In the Wilson example above I would expect them to stand behind the gun, until I (as an amateur) get a bunch of parts and put them inside. If cmshoot does the same thing as a factory-trained (and certified) armorer though, it's a whole different story.

In a civilian self defense shooting there are already so many things happening that are outside the pale for law abiding people. Anyone with a valid permit has by definition not spent a lot of time in jail, or in criminal court. They've never had to raise $10,000 or $20,000 for bail or $50,000 for a lawyer's retainer. Then there's potentially losing your job, the mental and social aspects, and God help you if it blows up, the media portraying you as some kind of vigilante at best.

There are some modifications (improved sights, flashlights, etc.) which are easy to articulate in a way that represents you as a more responsible person. There are some like Punisher skulls and cute sayings on the barrel which will always hurt you in court. There are a bunch that could go either way depending on how good you are at getting your lawyer, the DA, the judge and the jury to accept your narrative.

To me it simply makes sense to limit the options a prosecutor has to try and get a potential self defense claim struck down. As mentioned above, in the typical '3 rounds at 3 yards in 3 seconds' attack the trigger pull won't be making a lot of difference in the result for me. I know in my case the trigger on my FNS Compact is more than good enough for that kind of shooting and it won't be the weak link in any case.

If you do feel it's an issue, and you have the wherewithal to change it, no one is stopping you. It's just important that people are aware of the potential repercussions to their actions.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications