OK, got it.
When is Deadly Force justified during a riot?
- Thread starter Bear44
- Start date
OK, got it.
This is the answer I choose.
As a LEO, if I had ever wanted to "shoot someone based on what is legal" I would have had 5 or 6 notches in my guns. I've pointed loaded guns at more humans than I can remember and I'm THANKFUL that I was never forced to pull the trigger.
However, if it comes down to a situation where I can articulate that either I, a loved one, or a bystander were in imminent danger of death or bodily harm then there will be no hesitation.
If you want to look at it from an academic perspective, don't put it in terms of the riots. Put it in terms of your ability to articulate a suspect's ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. I personally believe that the exigent circumstances brought about by the uncertainty of mobs of violent, unruly looters would fall in the favor of the homeowner defending his family rather than the hood rats looking for loot. But as already pointed out, its going to be very hard to explain or justify putting a half a dozen 5.56 rounds into an unarmed teenage girl. Imminent danger does not justify poor marksmanship, bad tactics, or reckless behavior.
I live in a semi-rural neighborhood fairly far removed from heavily populated areas, but I'm also only about 20 minutes away from downtown Savannah. I certainly won't go looking for trouble, but I hope for trouble's sake it doesn't come looking for me.
Then again, maybe poor Georgie will get 30 years in the can and all of this will have been for nothing.
I don't think it's inappropriate to think about the legality of your actions. It's just when it's appropriate to think about it that matters. I understand you are wanting some type of reassurance after the fact but if I was in a situation that was 100% harmful to me or others I would "shoot first and ask questions later." I would only hope that if I had a gun pointed at my head and you were standing behind the person with a gun, that you would take a clean shot at him without second guessing your future. I would for you and anybody in a heartbeat.
I agree with LSU! I'm not a slick talking thinking how I'm going to verbalize before the fact person. I write reports, but always when the work is done. As a combat vet I never had to fire to kill. I never felt that I had to. Warning shots were fired and similarly to the stop or go decision driving up to a yellow light, mental lines were established. During these instances it was always threat based. Bear, I believe if you honestly feel trained enough to cc every day you will make the right decision.
It seems nowdays........... Depends on if you white or black.............and if they white or black.
If your life or the life of a loved one is in danger you're going to pull that trigger. If someone is trying to gain entry into your home during a riot or home invasion they're not coming in to wrestle. They're coming in to murder you and yours and destroy your everything. Been there done that, F*** em !
Have Plenty of throw aways ready to drop.
Bear44 it sounds like you need to talk to some of your neighbors and see if they are planning on sticking around or leaving. Kind of like the Asian guys in the video a couple of armed men defending their property is a good deterrent. If not, then you've got some witnesses on your side at the least. Living in the sticks has its advantages....3S's work wonders!
I would without hesitation and you are not getting what this thread is about. I'm not "wanting some type of reassurance after the fact". I'm looking for everyone's thoughts about it BEFORE the fact. That's when you should think about your actions. That's when tactical decisions should be made. Determining, to the best of your ability, how and when you will act beforehand is one of the best ways to make good decisions in the heat of it.
When would you use deadly force? One unarmed man breaking in your door? Several rioters approaching your home or business with club type weapons or knives. How close would you let them get? How about if they are about to torch your car in the driveway? What if it's close enough to your home to potentially set your house on fire? How about if they are smashing your home's windows in with stones from several yards away? What if they are doing it with clubs right outside the window?
These are the types of decisions I'm talking about. If you wait until it's happening to consider things like this, THAT is when you are most likely to make a bad decision that makes you dead or a convict. There are a lot more variables to think about in a riot situation than in a normal self defense encounter. Why do you guys believe that a willingness to think about them now equates to a hesitation to act if the time comes? It doesn't! I simply creates better clarity of when to act.
By considering these things beforehand you (or at least I) will act with more confidence and decisiveness if it is needed. Mental training is just as important as physical training and the old adage applies to both equally. "Train like you fight and fight like you train."
Lack of forethought (mental training) creates poor combat performance. Ask any LEO how much time they spend in the classroom training on the legal use of deadly force compared to how much time they spend on the range.
For decades I have run mental scenarios for just about any self defense encounter and am confident that if I ever have to use deadly force in that situation I will do it decisively AND not face any criminal charges for it. However, I have never really thought about how this applies to a riot. That is why I started this thread. To see if any of you have good ideas. One has already been presented. The recorded attempt to contact 911 is a very good idea and could very well make the difference if there are any questions about your actions. I have never thought of that because a typical SD encounter happens to fast to ever think about 911, but now I will be sure to have my cell on me as well as my AR and 1911. It could make the difference between walking away clean and being convicted of murder or manslaughter.
Thought is not your enemy. It is absolutely necessary. Acting as if it's the "Wild West" and blazing away is the screw up.
Unfortunately, some of my neighbors are some of the ones I'm worried about. We moved here a few months ago because of work and left an 11 acre spread in the country. Bad timing. LOL!
