AR-15 lower question

[FLGA]

There is bad information in this thread, and I mean no disrespect.

The manufacturer specifies what the lower designation is at the factory. It doesn't matter if the gun shop that transfers it checks the wrong box (*see felony below), the designation was established at the factory. If I transfer a full length 16" AR Rifle with a stock, I can check "handgun" all day long at the gun store, but that doesn't change the designation on the factory books.

If there was ever an issue with a receiver, it would be traced back to the manufacturer first. It would show in the manufacturer's log what the original designation was

I've seen several ads where people take BCM Lowers, and turn them into pistols. Being a BCM fanboy, I contacted them directly, as I was pretty sure you couldn't do this.

My direct correspondence below with BCM on this issue;

"Thank you for contacting us. Lower receiver groups that ship from our facility with either an SBA3 pistol brace attached or a pistol receiver extension installed will be logged out as pistol lower receiver groups. The lower receiver group that ships with only a 6-position receiver extension installed is shipped out as “Lower No Stock” so this can be made into either a pistol or rifle lower on your first build depending on whether you install a pistol brace or a stock.

Our lower receiver groups that ship out with a stock installed are logged out a rifle lower receiver groups.

For clarification, we would recommend contacting your local ATF office."

If you contact the ATF Office, you will get this quoted;

Quoting from the instructions for Form 4473

"Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(A)

(Question 27) Question 24-28. Firearm(s) Description:

These blocks must be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 by Federal firearms licensees should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e. pre-1968); you may answer question 26 with "NSN" (No Serial Number), "N/A" or "None." If more than four firearms are involved in a transaction, the information required by Section D, questions 24-28, must be provided for the additional firearms on a separate sheet of paper, which must be attached to this ATF Form 4473.

Types of firearms include, but are not limited to: pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell (pistol grip firearm) or NFA firearms (machinegun, silencer, short-barreled shotgun, short-barreled rifle, destructive device or "any other weapon").

End quote.

To enter false information on the form 4473 would be committing a Federal felony. Therefore a stripped receiver must be marked as a receiver. If it is a stripped receiver, regardless of manufactures markings, it must be recorded as a “receiver” on the form 4473.

To answer the question posted. The ATF would consider an AR 15 receiver a long gun when the receiver is assembled as a long gun when it is transferred. Again a receiver only, is to be recorded as a receiver.

I've never once commented on a bcm pistol ad, but just had this information for myself. Until deemed relevant.

 

[CTS Tactical]

There is bad information in this thread, and I mean no disrespect.

The manufacturer specifies what the lower designation is at the factory. It doesn't matter if the gun shop that transfers it checks the wrong box (*see felony below), the designation was established at the factory. If I transfer a full length 16" AR Rifle with a stock, I can check "handgun" all day long at the gun store, but that doesn't change the designation on the factory books.

If there was ever an issue with a receiver, it would be traced back to the manufacturer first. It would show in the manufacturer's log what the original designation was

I've seen several ads where people take BCM Lowers, and turn them into pistols. Being a BCM fanboy, I contacted them directly, as I was pretty sure you couldn't do this.

My direct correspondence below with BCM on this issue;

"Thank you for contacting us. Lower receiver groups that ship from our facility with either an SBA3 pistol brace attached or a pistol receiver extension installed will be logged out as pistol lower receiver groups. The lower receiver group that ships with only a 6-position receiver extension installed is shipped out as “Lower No Stock” so this can be made into either a pistol or rifle lower on your first build depending on whether you install a pistol brace or a stock.

Our lower receiver groups that ship out with a stock installed are logged out a rifle lower receiver groups.

For clarification, we would recommend contacting your local ATF office."

If you contact the ATF Office, you will get this quoted;

Quoting from the instructions for Form 4473

"Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(A)

(Question 27) Question 24-28. Firearm(s) Description:

These blocks must be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 by Federal firearms licensees should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e. pre-1968); you may answer question 26 with "NSN" (No Serial Number), "N/A" or "None." If more than four firearms are involved in a transaction, the information required by Section D, questions 24-28, must be provided for the additional firearms on a separate sheet of paper, which must be attached to this ATF Form 4473.

Types of firearms include, but are not limited to: pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell (pistol grip firearm) or NFA firearms (machinegun, silencer, short-barreled shotgun, short-barreled rifle, destructive device or "any other weapon").

End quote.

To enter false information on the form 4473 would be committing a Federal felony. Therefore a stripped receiver must be marked as a receiver. If it is a stripped receiver, regardless of manufactures markings, it must be recorded as a “receiver” on the form 4473.

To answer the question posted. The ATF would consider an AR 15 receiver a long gun when the receiver is assembled as a long gun when it is transferred. Again a receiver only, is to be recorded as a receiver.

I've never once commented on a bcm pistol ad, but just had this information for myself. Until deemed relevant.

While it is possible that BCM does it that way. That doesn't mean other manufacturers do. The law clearly states that until it is completed as either a rifle or a pistol, it is still designated as a receiver or frame. Until it has an upper attached to it and is in condition to fire, it is just a receiver.
I agree fully that marking it as something other than what it is on the 4473 does not change what the manufacturer designates it as but why would the manufacturer put limits on their sales by designating it as one or the other when it could be used for either? That part makes no sense at all. If I make a mistake and mark a Remington 870 as a rifle on the 4473 it is obviously still a shotgun and the same if I marked a receiver as a pistol or rifle when it is just a receiver. I have never marked a receiver as anything other than just that, a receiver. Not pistol receiver or rifle receiver. That even goes for a 1911 frame. It is just marked as a receiver or frame.

 

[FLGA]

While it is possible that BCM does it that way. That doesn't mean other manufacturers do. The law clearly states that until it is completed as either a rifle or a pistol, it is still designated as a receiver or frame. Until it has an upper attached to it and is in condition to fire, it is just a receiver.
I agree fully that marking it as something other than what it is on the 4473 does not change what the manufacturer designates it as but why would the manufacturer put limits on their sales by designating it as one or the other when it could be used for either? That part makes no sense at all. If I make a mistake and mark a Remington 870 as a rifle on the 4473 it is obviously still a shotgun and the same if I marked a receiver as a pistol or rifle when it is just a receiver. I have never marked a receiver as anything other than just that, a receiver. Not pistol receiver or rifle receiver. That even goes for a 1911 frame. It is just marked as a receiver or frame.

Wasn't directed negatively at you, we all watch this poop show together.

I think atf language is intentionally ambiguous. I think the atf representatives don't give solid black and white answers to direct questions to avoid pigeon holing themselves down the line.

I also think if you want stripped receivers, but them stripped. If you want a pistol lower, buy it stripped or in pistol configuration from the factory.

"While it is possible that BCM does it that way. That doesn't mean other manufacturers do."

Any manufacturer can do anything they want, they're private entities and can run their businesses as they see fit. As a consumer, just spend the $79 dollars on a new stripped lower and you don't have to worry about what any company does or doesn't do with their books.

Not arguing, but I don't risk silly things like this over my freedom. Lots of people on here also don't pin their 14.5" barrels. Are you really risking a 10 year sentence because you don't want to spend $75 on a weld ? Not you specifically, but the masses.

 

[CTS Tactical]

Wasn't directed negatively at you, we all watch this poop show together.

I think atf language is intentionally ambiguous. I think the atf representatives don't give solid black and white answers to direct questions to avoid pigeon holing themselves down the line.

I also think if you want stripped receivers, but them stripped. If you want a pistol lower, buy it stripped or in pistol configuration from the factory.

"While it is possible that BCM does it that way. That doesn't mean other manufacturers do."

Any manufacturer can do anything they want, they're private entities and can run their businesses as they see fit. As a consumer, just spend the $79 dollars on a new stripped lower and you don't have to worry about what any company does or doesn't do with their books.

Not arguing, but I don't risk silly things like this over my freedom. Lots of people on here also don't pin their 14.5" barrels. Are you really risking a 10 year sentence because you don't want to spend $75 on a weld ? Not you specifically, but the masses.

No, I didn't take it as aimed towards me and you are right that if the manufacturer designates it as a rifle lower then it is a rifle lower but it's just odd to me that they would do that. I just spoke with PSA to be sure I hadn't been screwing up all these years and I was assured that regardless of what configuration it leaves them it is logged out as other/receiver. Like I said before, I agree with what you said about the fact that the 4473 from some random dealer means nothing in the legal sense. If I screw up and put the wrong thing that is on me. All of these laws pertaining to "once a pistol always a pistol" were implemented long before M16s and AR15s were even invented. The laws are antiquated and field agents pretty much agree, at least the ones I have talked to about it. They don't run around looking to bust someone on a technicality like that one. If you were busted for robbing a bank with said firearm then you might well get the added charge of an illegally built weapon or what ever the charge would be but otherwise if you built it in good faith believing it was safe to build as a pistol then you are probably going to be ok even if it turns out that it was a rifle and you didn't know it.

 

[furious]

Or perhaps you could just ask the FFL if he's calling it a rifle or not. It's not like a 4473 is some sort of super secret document that cant be seen. Just ask and you'll have the info you seek.

Man, You guys think WAY too much.

 

[gh1950]

You cant sell it either.

That is not correct.

I understood that you could sell a completed 80% lower as long as you didn't finish it with the intent to sell.

That is correct.

 

[CTS Tactical]

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) permits an unlicensed individual to make a firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way that a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.c...xplicitly made for,can be sold or transferred.