What's considered a good grouping at 7 yards rapid fire?

[mikey357]

Just because you don't know me you're sure I'm not better? (I'm not saying that I am or I'm not and I'm not trying to call anyone out) If I was better would it make his opinion invalid? It wouldn't in my eyes, because outside of the fundamentals there are many ways to skin a cat. I've run into many very good shooters with different training philosophies and try to understand and embrace them all. There was I time the best shooters in the world shot strong had weaver. That didn't d that make it right?

I don't recall commenting on WHO I thought was the BETTER SHOOTER...I can, however, tell from your "Doctrinaire" comments to the OP that you still have a ways to go in LEARNING about this thing we call "Pistol Shooting"--don't we all?--and "Learning" & "Teaching" of same, and I stated that I would not dismiss BOZ's comments, based on knowing him & what kind of "Performance" he can show with a Handgun...

The fact remains that a Shooter--ANY Shooter--needs to learn HOW to "Make The Hits" BEFORE trying to "Hit The Gas"...It would AMAZE you the number of people who own Handguns who have NO IDEA about how to "Hit" ANYTHING with 'em--Learn THAT FIRST, THEN "Speed Up"...

BTW, people talk about "Combat" or "SD" versus "Competition" and "Raceguns" versus "Service Pistols"...The "News Flash" HERE is that THE BASICS are STILL the basics no matter which type Shooting you want to do, no matter what your "Sidearm of Choice"--LEARN the FUNDAMENTALS, apply 'em correctly, and YOU can can "Make The Hits"..."Slack Off" on the Fundamentals, and perhaps you should learn to PRAY, as well...GLWT!....mikey357

 

[Boz1911]

I'm not gonna bite my tongue anymore. When you're competing with a race gun equipped with a 30rd mag, compensator and red dot, you can't compare.what you do to a Guy that's shooting a service weapon with a 5lb trigger pull and factory sights. There are some shooters out there that shoot very fast and very accurate with service weapons (willr1 is frigging quick) but that came from experience. When.you're shooting a race gun with a sub 2lb crisp trigger, compensator, weights and red dot, sure.it's easy to run >20 shots. When you've got a 5lb trigger pull service gun with factory sights, not as easy.

No it is not as easy to manipulate a "stock" weapon but the fundamentals are all the same, which is my only point. Had I posted a video with my 1911 or a Glock the mechanics are all the same. Seeing the sight or sights lift as you fire the shot is a or the key factor to shooting well. The point of this thread was "group size pulling the trigger as fast as I can".
My contention is that ballistic masturbation is simply a waste of time, trying to attain ultimate speed and group size without at least some idea of what,why, and how is unproductive and may lead to extremely hard to break bad habits.
I posted one video to illustrate how target difficulty dictated the differences in time between shots.
The second was to illustrate that you can go fast, make quality shots whilst seeing the sight(s)
Neither was to show my fancy race gun. I do not use my race gun for everyday carry it's a tad bulky but what I do carry I can shoot it properly and accurately.
And the reason I can is all to do with proper techniques.
If anyone thinks empyting a hicap mag into a target as fast as you can and not knowing where the shots are really going is productive, have at it. It's just not the way I personally would advise a new shooter to learn anything.

 

[CQB27]

[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Meatwadttm
Very true. but a service weapon takes more practice to run fast than a race gun. Hell I could.mag.dump the **** out.of my 19 in a 2" grouping at 15 feet after experience with it, but it took.some getting.[/QUOTE]

Just stop man. Seriously.

I actually think he is right to question and expect a valid defense of Competitive Shooting Equates to Combat Shooting Theory. There seems to be little tolerance here for critical thinking (not directed at you, but the site as a whole). I don't really know why, critical thinking and respectfully questioning and challenging conventional thinking are vital to improvement. Opposition is not always disrespectful or ignorent. We should all be open to learn from anyone who has valid input, regardless of their resume or experience level. Discounting one because we disagree stunts us.

Any instructor, shooter, "expert" should be open to those who think critically and challange the status quo. They should be willing to logically defend their theory, curriculum, instructional skill set. They should never default to the patronizing and condesending "It is not the way but a way, just another tool for your tool box" defense. One either believes the things he teaches are valid and cutting edge or not and "just another tool".


I have read the responses defending fundementals being the same in any event. That is true and about the only thing Competitive Shooting and Combat Shooting share.

I am impressed with the speed, accuracy, and equipment displayed in the videos in this thread that take place within the parameters of competitive shooting. I have alot of respect for the time, equipment and training it takes to develop that skill set. I do not believe that mastering that skill set by default prepares one for a gunfight.

Gunfighting is dynamic with no rules/parameters. Almost always there is no anticipation of the need to shoot, much less draw, one is not patiently awaiting the buzzer. The threat is almost always moving and shooting before your weapon is oriented toward it. Your are stuck in the reaction curve, responding rather than initiating. Your anxiety level is most likely above anything you have experienced. If you find yourself defaulting to searching for the rise and fall of your front sight during a fight occuring at "bad breath" distance, where front/rear/rds sights are irrelevant, you are losing.

 

[SteelRinger]

Something else I will add to this ego-fest.

If I just put a 124 grain hollowpoint into a zombie, why the heck would I want to put another one in exactly the same spot? Damage from bullets is not linear the more you put in the same spot. The key in combat situations is to "spread the wealth". I want the bad guy bleeding from many distinct holes, not one bug-hole.

In my opinion, I want all my bullets to hit somewhere in the center of mass of a person, which is approximately 18" wide and 24" tall. If I can keep all 7 of my shots in that space as fast as I can pull the trigger, I am good. If I am "stacking" my shots, I am not shooting fast enough.

Just my food for thought.

 

[spavent]

I compete with a Stock Service Pistol, because my goal is to become a better self defense shooter and know the equipment I carry and have around the house. I've stressed in my posts that fundamentals are important but pushing for speed also important. Maybe folks will better understand if you watch some vid's of the program that taught me how to shoot, because I'm lucky enough to live in Ellijay and you wouldn't come close to passing this course unless you push yourself faster than you think is possible. Target system that forces the shooter to be both fast and accurate with little to no trade off. Almost everyone here shoots service pistols. Any OTD'er wanting to take a course is welcome to stay at my place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TfhqEeIxg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0qBBQ-_sE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0qBBQ-_sE

 

[protective measures]

I compete with a Stock Service Pistol, because my goal is to become a better self defense shooter and know the equipment I carry and have around the house. I've stressed in my posts that fundamentals are important but pushing for speed also important. Maybe folks will better understand if you watch some vid's of the program that taught me how to shoot, because I'm lucky enough to live in Ellijay and you wouldn't come close to passing this course unless you push yourself faster than you think is possible. Target system that forces the shooter to be both fast and accurate with little to no trade off. Almost everyone here shoots service pistols. Any OTD'er wanting to take a course is welcome to stay at my place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TfhqEeIxg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0qBBQ-_sE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0qBBQ-_sE

Some of the most enjoyable shooting I've ever done.
Ronnie was a friend before but didn't get to meet Bill since he was overseas when I went through.

 

[No2sc2]

Did you have to shoot your gun "HOMEBOY" style? (sideways)

 

[protective measures]

Something else I will add to this ego-fest.

If I just put a 124 grain hollowpoint into a zombie, why the heck would I want to put another one in exactly the same spot? Damage from bullets is not linear the more you put in the same spot. The key in combat situations is to "spread the wealth". I want the bad guy bleeding from many distinct holes, not one bug-hole.

In my opinion, I want all my bullets to hit somewhere in the center of mass of a person, which is approximately 18" wide and 24" tall. If I can keep all 7 of my shots in that space as fast as I can pull the trigger, I am good. If I am "stacking" my shots, I am not shooting fast enough.

Just my food for thought.

I agree w/ the spirit of your comment though as I'm sure you know "live" adversaries don't normally stand still while you're shooting them.

Too many students we train have the "range" mentality of trying to take too much time at closer distances to stack their shots into pretty little clovers when speed should be the higher priority i.e. "combat effective" shots over precision marksmanship when you're at close distance like you're referring to.

 

[protective measures]

Did you have to shoot your gun "HOMEBOY" style? (sideways)

You referring to the picture on my website where one of our students got carried away w/ canting his pistol a bit too far when we were doing some one-handed drills?

I got onto to him more than once about that. A slight cant does help lock up the joints better along w/ creating isometric tension in the upper body when possible (borrowed both of those technique straight from Ayoob though many others teach it. I think he & Chuck Taylor were the first two I remember it from.)

I catch grief about that all of the time. We have some more Intermediate classes coming up soon so we'll be adding better pic's.

 

[DaveTheMinion]

Homeboy shooting is fine as long as yourgun has the proper home boy style shooting sights.. (kidding)

While I don't think a newbie without solid fundamentals should lay the hammer down, I'd like to know what you.mean about the "precision marksmanship", typically as soon as my front sight jumps back on.my target, I'm pressing off again. Recoil changes the speed I can do.this at, I'm not focusing on an x ring, typically its the 5x region on a silhouette target, or my favorite, inside the red of a sight and see target. Ill also use the center of mass box or yellow circle in the head region on a generic silhouette target like the ones Hi Caliber sells. While I'm not aiming for a certain spot, even aiming in the region rapid fire I'm still able to pull about 2".