Would be hard to disagree with tmoore's argument.
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Another example of insufficient safety training by a CCW holder
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You don't really know me, & as I've learned on here as I'm sure many others have as well, judging someone by their "internet personality" as opposed to meeting them in real life usually gives you a totally different opinion of their personality & intent .
While I don't believe mandated training would hurt as far as it comes to helping those with no experience with guns whatsoever, after spending some time talking w/ one of the top Instructors for that class in Tn. & seeing how insufficient it is, I think that if the gun-owning public would show some collective initiative & educate themselves & less experienced people they would be a better served.
You speak as if I have any influence at the State level. It doesn't matter what I think. Whether mandated training happens or not is not up to me. My personal opinion has NO impact whatsoever on what happens at the state level whereas if the gun community would do as I've suggested on a large scale collectively THEY could have an impact.
Why do you think I would suggest that more people get their NRA Instructors license to be more qualified to help people?
Wouldn't that be creating competition for me & my school? How is that good for me?
How would you like to twist that to make me out to be a bad guy?
With the disrespect & gross negligence that so many people treat firearms with, that often results in death or injury, I feel there is a good chance that training will become mandatory unless gun-owners make a determined effort to correct the problem themselves.
You cannot argue with my statement that it would help matters if gun owners would do a better job educating themselves... & then educating others in safe gun-handling. And that it could reduce the likelihood of state mandated training.
There are already people being mandated to take my classes. They are persons that through their ignorance of the laws found themselves on the wrong side of the law & were sentenced to take a safety class by local courts as part of their probation after the fact.
Look at the big picture instead of trying to make me out as an enemy.
While I don't believe mandated training would hurt as far as it comes to helping those with no experience with guns whatsoever, after spending some time talking w/ one of the top Instructors for that class in Tn. & seeing how insufficient it is, I think that if the gun-owning public would show some collective initiative & educate themselves & less experienced people they would be a better served.
You speak as if I have any influence at the State level. It doesn't matter what I think. Whether mandated training happens or not is not up to me. My personal opinion has NO impact whatsoever on what happens at the state level whereas if the gun community would do as I've suggested on a large scale collectively THEY could have an impact.
Why do you think I would suggest that more people get their NRA Instructors license to be more qualified to help people?
Wouldn't that be creating competition for me & my school? How is that good for me?
How would you like to twist that to make me out to be a bad guy?
With the disrespect & gross negligence that so many people treat firearms with, that often results in death or injury, I feel there is a good chance that training will become mandatory unless gun-owners make a determined effort to correct the problem themselves.
You cannot argue with my statement that it would help matters if gun owners would do a better job educating themselves... & then educating others in safe gun-handling. And that it could reduce the likelihood of state mandated training.
There are already people being mandated to take my classes. They are persons that through their ignorance of the laws found themselves on the wrong side of the law & were sentenced to take a safety class by local courts as part of their probation after the fact.
Look at the big picture instead of trying to make me out as an enemy.
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Awaiting a response...
While I'm not willing to say how you would and would not speak before any committee...I do agree with this statement. As I've said before...the insurance salesman decrying those who do have insurance is a little grating.
On the contrary, I think that is very arguable. I challenge you, or anyone else, to produce empirical data that shows that a state with mandated training for CCW programs has a statistically lower death or injury rate due to negligent discharges or weapon handling mistakes. I don't think you can, because it doesn't happen....and to further argue your inarguable statement, the very state that you brought up in this discussion, Florida, has mandated safety courses for CCW holders and it is this very state in which the accident happened.
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Apparently I didn't word my intended message in the manner I intended.
Now... if we could get back to the bigger picture & my whole intent of this thread...
Would or would not more private individuals, either getting their NRA Instructor certification (thereby becoming a competitor to me) or at least becoming more educated with at least the primary safety rules before taking it upon themselves to help others, have a positive influence on the gun community & help reduce the likelihood of incidents like the one posted above?
Now... if we could get back to the bigger picture & my whole intent of this thread...
Would or would not more private individuals, either getting their NRA Instructor certification (thereby becoming a competitor to me) or at least becoming more educated with at least the primary safety rules before taking it upon themselves to help others, have a positive influence on the gun community & help reduce the likelihood of incidents like the one posted above?
to answer your question, yes. However that is no reason for state mandated training being a prerequisite to being able to exercise a constitutional right. I like the bill in the state legislature now to allow everyone to carry with no restrictions. There will be NDs regardless of training or safety knowledge. This happens in the military, police any where that guns are. These people are trained and told the safety rules, yet still accidents happen.
How many times do i have to say it.... THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT MANDATED TRAINING
My point is & was that the shooter in this incident did not follow the safety rules & either wasn't proficient or at least was irresponsible with his gun-handling & as a result a little girl was gravely injured.
With better training, it might could have been prevented. Maybe not... but I can tell you I am around professionals on a regular basis & you can tell those who have been trained. Be it by other professionals or family members, you can tell the difference.
I was with an Insur. agent yesterday w/ no formal training who, when handed a weapon, cleared it again, kept his finger out of the trigger, & kept the muzzle pointed toward a safe direction.
He didn't do that by accident... someone had taught him & he practices safe gun-handling techniques.
So as a result when he comes to train I can briefly review safety rules & then focus more on teaching how to avoid or deal with a lethal threat instead of having to worry as much about getting shot , or him shooting himself or someone else.
I have to spend too much precious training time with "self-taught" "gun guys" unlearning bad habits & repeatedly practicing the most basic safety handling techniques when that time would be better spent on other mindset & appropriate drills.
Why does everyone insist on dodging the suggestion that I made for everyone to take a more active role in confirming your knowledge & practice of proper gun-handling skills before "teaching" others & keep bringing up this mandated training issue?
According to the information you cited in your original post, I would have to say "Probably not." The incident you posted above was exactly what you are prescribing. The man, a "trained" CCW holder in the state of FLA was showing his friend his gun, one could argue even, "teaching" him - and yet, the poor girl still got shot.
What you and what every other trainer will never admit to is that there is no level of training that can accommodate for lack of intelligence. And while some may dismiss this arguement because Ron White has a stand up show of the same name, it doesn't make it any less true. You can't fix stupid. No amount of training can penetrate the mentally inept. Even after hours, days, and months of drilling....all you will have is well trained moron.
They exist everywhere...and the reason no amount of training will matter to the moron? They lack the ability to link the training to life. "Training" takes place "in class" and "class" only happens at "school" and "when the bell rings," they aren't at "school" any more and so they cease to utilize their "training." At the risk of being glib...you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can give the moron all the training in the world...but he still has to use it...and he won't...why? Because he's a moron.
Not because he's untrained.
PM let it be, yall are arguing over two entirely different things and he isn't going to quit because of reason and logic.
