Feds trying to force Apple to unlock Iphones!

[Old Ranger]

By "Old Ranger" I'll assume you mean "hypervigilant" .. as an old Marine , I feel pretty much the same way.

Haha! Yes! I'll accept that!

 

[divemaverick]

This is where you are wrong. The ONLY way that Apple would have to access THAT phone is to completely write the operating system to bypass the security feature. And that program does NOT exist now. But, once it is written, it cannot be unwritten. Then it becomes up for grabs for anyone that can hack into say Apple or the feds, possibly. And they can't write the program for just THAT phone. It must be written for the Operating system.
Now...I'll let you answer your own hypothetical question by answering this one.
Lets say the Feds or local LEOs think that they could stop a crime like murder if they bypassed the 4th Amendment, by not obtaining a Judge signed search warrant. And because it served a singular instance it should now be left to the individual LEOs (city, county, state or Feds) discretion? If not, why? And.. that's your answer.

I am in no way defending the position the government should be allowed to have a backdoor to all phone's operating systems. I think if they have a valid and legal search warrant that was obtained in full compliance with the 4th amendment, they are REQUIRED to try all means they can to find the information on this phone and try to prevent this from happening again.


I think we are arguing different points. My first point is that I don't believe in any way that Apple designed a system without any possible way to bypass the deletion feature of the password protection. I do not believe they have to write any software to disable a feature on their phone. I may be wrong but that is my opinion. My hypothetical question has nothing to do with Apple writing software. It is based on your belief that obtaining a search warrant in the situation I outlined would be right or wrong in your opinion. Would you want law enforcement to legally obtain a search warrant and follow every lead possible to find the murderer of your family, or say that for the good of all people they don't want to invade the privacy of the person that was using that phone?

I absolutely believe in the constitution as it was written and do not believe that it is a living document that changes. It is exactly what it is and nothing like political atmosphere can change it. But if you believe that following the constitution (by legally obtaining information through the search warrant route) gives the government too much power, then what should we do? Do you believe the information on your phone is off limits to absolutely everyone, or should it be used if a valid and legal search warrant requests it? Set aside anything about Apple saying they can't do it. On a phone that can be broken into, should they be able to do it?

Also, your hypothetical changes the original question I posed. My question takes full account of the 4th amendment and I am asking that if a search warrant was legally obtained to gain information in the phone left by someone that murdered your entire family, would you feel any different?

Your proposal changes it to NOT getting a search warrant and defeats the whole point of the question. The point of the question is to put you in a place of weakness and see if your values about privacy would change when the outcome directly effects YOU. Not the rest of the county or me or anyone else. Just YOU.

Would you want to use legally obtained information from a phone that belonged to the person that murdered your entire family? Or, for the sake of everyone's privacy, just say NO I don't want to go down that road. I can live with not knowing and move on.

My answer to my question is the whole point of my argument. I can't say I am against the feds using a search warrant to get info from THAT phone, when I damn sure would not sit around and worry about anyone's privacy if it was my family in my hypothetical question. I can't support one and not the other.

I think we mainly just disagree on whether APPLE is telling the truth or lying about getting the info........if Apple is telling the truth and can't get into the phone, then there is a different debate on that and you and I are probably on the same side there.........RLTW.

 

[NWSharpshooter]

I am in no way defending the position the government should be allowed to have a backdoor to all phone's operating systems. I think if they have a valid and legal search warrant that was obtained in full compliance with the 4th amendment, they are REQUIRED to try all means they can to find the information on this phone and try to prevent this from happening again.


I think we are arguing different points. My first point is that I don't believe in any way that Apple designed a system without any possible way to bypass the deletion feature of the password protection. I do not believe they have to write any software to disable a feature on their phone. I may be wrong but that is my opinion. My hypothetical question has nothing to do with Apple writing software. It is based on your belief that obtaining a search warrant in the situation I outlined would be right or wrong in your opinion. Would you want law enforcement to legally obtain a search warrant and follow every lead possible to find the murderer of your family, or say that for the good of all people they don't want to invade the privacy of the person that was using that phone?

I absolutely believe in the constitution as it was written and do not believe that it is a living document that changes. It is exactly what it is and nothing like political atmosphere can change it. But if you believe that following the constitution (by legally obtaining information through the search warrant route) gives the government too much power, then what should we do? Do you believe the information on your phone is off limits to absolutely everyone, or should it be used if a valid and legal search warrant requests it? Set aside anything about Apple saying they can't do it. On a phone that can be broken into, should they be able to do it?

Also, your hypothetical changes the original question I posed. My question takes full account of the 4th amendment and I am asking that if a search warrant was legally obtained to gain information in the phone left by someone that murdered your entire family, would you feel any different?

Your proposal changes it to NOT getting a search warrant and defeats the whole point of the question. The point of the question is to put you in a place of weakness and see if your values about privacy would change when the outcome directly effects YOU. Not the rest of the county or me or anyone else. Just YOU.

Would you want to use legally obtained information from a phone that belonged to the person that murdered your entire family? Or, for the sake of everyone's privacy, just say NO I don't want to go down that road. I can live with not knowing and move on.

My answer to my question is the whole point of my argument. I can't say I am against the feds using a search warrant to get info from THAT phone, when I damn sure would not sit around and worry about anyone's privacy if it was my family in my hypothetical question. I can't support one and not the other.

I think we mainly just disagree on whether APPLE is telling the truth or lying about getting the info........if Apple is telling the truth and can't get into the phone, then there is a different debate on that and you and I are probably on the same side there.........RLTW.

Forcing Apple to develop software is a direct violation of the 4th and 13th ammendments.

13 ammendment

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation

 

[sparked1]

Prepaid phones won't give you crap. Thugs like to take selfies and other photos or contacts that can lead you to the real owner of the phone or GPS locations if they have it on their photos......

Prepaid phones still have sim cards, IMEI#s, and serials. They just aren't registered to an owner. The phone still identifies itself with cell towers and other comm equipment, so they can see the incoming/outgoing calls to/from a prepaid, which could potentially lead to a perp. Regardless, if Apple created software that they did not intend to hack -ever-, as a selling feature of that product, no government agency should be allowed to force them to develop such a hack.

 

[JamesG]

Regardless, if Apple created software that they did not intend to hack -ever-, as a selling feature of that product, no government agency should be allowed to force them to develop such a hack.

LOL. Why? The State can compel you by force to obey it's will. Corporations are people too.

Opps. Did the facade of America's "Freedom and Liberty" just crack a little bit more?

 

[divemaverick]

I absolutely agree and believe that Apple cannot be forced to develop something they don't have in order to hack their security on the iPhone. My disagreement is I don't believe Apple when it says it isn't possible for Apple itself to bypass their password feature. How do we know if they do or not? I have no idea.

My question was posed to determine if everyone who is saying the info on the phone should not be accessed at all would say the same thing if it effected them personally. Nothing whatsoever to do with Apple writing software.

 

[JamesG]

People seeking vengeance/justice are rarely rational or thinking of larger principles.

 

[Old Ranger]

divemaverick I apologize. Apparently I misunderstood your question and omitted the preceding paragraph. (unintentionally). Yes I agree that if they have a valid search warrant signed by a judge as outlined in the 4th Amendment they should be able to access that phone for any available information. But, NEVER be able to force an individual or Private entity with a court order, threats of imprisonment or monetary forfeiture for not complying to servitude. NVSharpshooter said this much better above.

Forcing Apple to develop software is a direct violation of the 4th and 13th ammendments.

13 ammendment

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation

But, to go deeper, I will say that one of the beautiful things about our Constitution, if left unmolested. Is that it automatically removes the gut action reflex and emotion from the equation. As you said.. it is what it is. However, on a personal level I think the majority would say. (including myself) " I don't care what it says. I want those who killed mine, to be found at any cost!"
So I agree with you on both points. Literal and implied.

I truly enjoy these kind of discussions and the many entries and opinions that have contributed to this thread. It gives me more hope and faith that our Republic can continue as intended!