i always offer what i think is the lowest amount they will hear before saying "**** you". I often times make offers that are honestly fairly low, how the hell am i gonna know until i at least try? sometimes you will be surprised and get a yes and then you get a hell of a deal, more often then not though you get a counter offer and you go back and forth until a deal is made, thats haggling. Now granted haggling is getting less and less common so alot of times you'll shoot an offer to someone and simple get a a "no" and thats when you know your dealing with someone who doesnt know HOW to make a deal.