New ATF definition of firearm

[gh1950]

Up to a point, but as they make very clear in this proposal, Congress gave the Atty General the authority to 'interpret' the statues and create regulations to enforce it. This has been supported over and over again in court, and when it comes to a 'technical' decision like this I don't know that the ATF has ever lost a case.

They have lost at least 2 on AR-15s, which THEY chose not to appeal because they didn't want to establish a bad precedence. They didn't have a chance to get the decisions reversed.

They lost the case with T/C over whether they were selling short barreled rifles with thee Encore pistol, That one went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Those are just the 3 I can recall from memory, research might reveal more.

Granted they have some rulemaking power in the definition of firearms and what constitutes different classes of firearms. BUT it's a long way from ATF proposing a radical change in the law through regulation, and those regulations actually being implemented,

 

[gh1950]

GCA '68was probably one of the earliest laws to delegate Congress's authority to the executive branch, but it's a process that's been speeding up ever since.

It started in 1887 with the creation of the Interstate Commerce Commission, then in 1914 the Federal Trade Commission was created. In the next 100 years the rate and areas in which Congress has abdicated its responsibility has accelerated at an incredible rate.

Firearms seem to be a special case, though. Most regulatory agencies are industry friendly, they shield the regulated industries from the populist inclinations of Congress. Take any agency, and follow the career paths of the top employees and appointed regulators.

A prime example would be the 2008 melt down in collateralized debt obligations, caused by wonky housing loans that never should have been made. These matters were regulated by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, the Comptroller General, the SEC, HUD, and probably a couple of more. There was massive fraud in the loans and the representation made to investors - yet not a single person was charged or went to jail or held accountable for the billions of dollars that just disappeared.

Then you have firearms, where there is basically one agency, the BATF, whose mission is to basically harass the industry and it customer base. Note that there is basically no open door between BATF and the industry - you don't see anyone retire and go sit on the board of Ruger.

 

[spencer60]

They have lost at least 2 on AR-15s, which THEY chose not to appeal because they didn't want to establish a bad precedence. They didn't have a chance to get the decisions reversed.

They lost the case with T/C over whether they were selling short barreled rifles with thee Encore pistol, That one went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Those are just the 3 I can recall from memory, research might reveal more.

Granted they have some rulemaking power in the definition of firearms and what constitutes different classes of firearms. BUT it's a long way from ATF proposing a radical change in the law through regulation, and those regulations actually being implemented,

I'd forgotten the TC case, but in this rule notice they will try and make the AR cases moot by saying that in '68 there were very few guns with 'modular receivers' out there, and the law wasn't written to deal with them. They made an arbitrary decision that the lower was the 'receiver' because that would be the part modified to make a machine gun under NFA.

It's kind of a catch-all rule and covers a heck of a lot of ground. I've read all 115 pages but I'm not sure I have any real feel for it yet. Some of it sounds perfectly reasonable, some of it you can see where it end up completely arbitrary and capricious.

I will say this, it's probably better that it's an ATF rule, which can easily be reversed, rather than going to Congress. They cite the rule "Everytown..." wanted implemented and it was a nightmare. If that got put in as law we'd be screwed.

 

[Bandwidth]

does this even get voted on or does the ATF still have the ability to just make laws

They can't legislate but they can create new definitions...which is de facto legislating.

 

[Gaffer1968]

They can't legislate but they can create new definitions...which is de facto legislating.

Indeed. Conservatives talk about "The Rule of Law;" Democrats ACT on their 'rules' as if they were laws.

 

[unheard]

I've put my dogs on notice.

 

[kuduman]

And do a 4473 to put it in their book no matter if they keep it overnight or not.

And that's the problem... tens of millions of uppers suddenly having 90 days to get marked to match the lowers-- that might not be on 4473s at the moment. It's their dream come true.

Or does one not have to get an upper marked until sale?

 

[Gaffer1968]

And that's the problem... tens of millions of uppers suddenly having 90 days to get marked to match the lowers-- that might not be on 4473s at the moment. It's their dream come true.

Or does one not have to get an upper marked until sale?

The point is to drive all the 80+% receiver small manufacturers and those that make good money selling uppers to them out of business. Plain and simple. Wrong? then why are most of the rifles, ARs and AKs particularly that I've bought at one piece only have a serial number only on the lower?

 

[gh1950]

I will say this, it's probably better that it's an ATF rule, which can easily be reversed, rather than going to Congress. They cite the rule "Everytown..." wanted implemented and it was a nightmare. If that got put in as law we'd be screwed.

Agree,

 

[spencer60]

And that's the problem... tens of millions of uppers suddenly having 90 days to get marked to match the lowers-- that might not be on 4473s at the moment. It's their dream come true.

Or does one not have to get an upper marked until sale?

That's specifically excluded under this rule. Their worst nightmare is having AR uppers AND lower be considered the 'receiver'. They want to codify that the lower is the receiver to get them out of the court cases that have been hammering them lately.

The marking section is mainly aimed at "Personally Assembled Firearms" (80% guns) and how they have to be treated if, and only if, they are sold to an FFL or transferred through one (nice tie-in with Universal BGCs, huh?).