let some gentlemen know i was carrying.

[EchoFiveIndia]

I just read this entire thread and am very surprised at what is missing. I've had a MIND NUMBING amount of training on the use of deadly force and subsequent articulation so I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I strongly disagree with your actions and wouldn't have done what you did but it worked and you resolved the situation. Good job.

We have a saying, "C Y A". Can you articulate? You have to be able to explain and justify your actions based on the totality of the circumstances.

To use deadly for you need to be able to articulate opportunity, means, and intent. Here's what it was in your situation:

Opportunity: They were well within range to attack.
Means: Disparity of force, there were two of them
Intent: They actually told you they wanted to F you up. They were also displaying pre-assault indicators: clinched fists, raised voices, etc

I'm not saying you would have been justified to shoot them but that's how I would have articulated your circumstances.

Start thinking in those terms and it will help you a TON in recognizing when there's real danger and being able to explain your actions later. Also, think about everything involved. Did they appear to be in shape, well built? Were they wearing anything that would indicate they have formal training/experience? MMA fighting shirts, Glock shirt, gang colors etc. Were they advancing on you/attempting to flank/take a position of advantage? You get the drift...

Kudos for getting yourself safely out of the situation, even if I do disagree with your technique. I would highly encourage you to read up on pre-assault indicators and develop a solid understanding of opportunity, means, and intent as it relates to the use of force. It will build confidence and awareness that could save your life. Hesitation will get you killed.

At the end of the day, you made it home safe. That's all that really counts.

 

[adamk222]

what truck? thay were on foot i was next to my truck

just wonder what would have happened if, when you raised your shirt to show your gun, the guys in the truck had grabbed their gun off the seat of the truck and shot you? glad it worked out.

 

[chiefsquirrel83]

seen many of cases like this in my line of work. I am glad you weren't harmed. Here is where it can bite you in the butt real quick. They get scared and call the police stating that you brandished a weapon. You then get charged with Felony Terroristic Threats and Poss. of a Firearm During the Commission of a crime. You can argue and claim that it is BS. But according to some folks I supervise this is exactly what happened. I am not saying you are right or wrong. Our right to bear arms is an awesome right and privilege.

 

[protective measures]

I would try to break this habit before it gets set in stone...you are living very dangerously...you may shake up an amateur but an adversary with military training,combat experience, years and years of police training or just plain cranked out will not follow your expectations.
There's an old saying in police and military operations, the best laid out plan goes to he** immediately at the sound of the first shot. Your adversary isn't in on your plan and he doesn't know what his script is, he didn't read the play book..he does his own thing his own way
I have trained and taught for over 45 years and I can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE, when my hand starts to the weapon everything after that is sheer mechanical response , I will draw and fire and I will hit my adversary with every round I fire and I'm an old man now. You waste a round in the ground on a trained individual and you'll be lucky to get the next one off.You don't think about it till its over and most people that have been in a gunfight can't even tell you how many shots they fired till the weapon is checked.

"Badger" is right on this one...everything he said is dead-on. Based on real-life historical precedence, even if you hit your threat with shots to the vitals, unless the brain or spinal column is hit, they can still kill you. So, in a vicious life or death fight every split second counts & a wasted shot to the ground will give them time to use their weapon or close distance. Even with lethal damage to their vitals they can still kill you ... which is why we practice "failure to stop" drills so much.
You know,"Two to the body, one to the head"? ALL pistol bullets are notorious for being poor stoppers from time to time.
I understand where you are coming from & used to think the same way... but every single Instructor that I trained with explained to me that a fight doesn't follow a script & hardened criminals can be very hard to stop with a pistol caliber. They may die later but our priority is to stop them NOW.

Pistols just don't make good less than lethal tools, that's not their purpose... which is why on a Law Enfor. Officer's belt you usually see 3 less lethal devices & only 1 lethal weapon. Less lethal situations normally require a dedicated tool designed for that purpose.
In my classes we discuss various scenarios where either should be employed. They are different tools for different jobs.

If you aren't SURE your life/families lives are in danger, you shouldn't draw your gun.
If it is a life/death situation, you better be well-trained because you probably won't have time to think about it... and you had better be good or "lucky" because if you are not one or the other, you might be killed.

When I was just learning, I decided to "cheat" & use/carry what the "professionals" did until I found something that worked better for me and to use the same tactics that they did because they do it for a reason even if I didn't necessarily agree or understand why. As I became more educated, what they did made more sense & while I did change some small things, I generally did things just like they did & still do. Tactics do change every once in awhile but whenever you have an idea that deviates from the "tried & true" standards, run it by as many people whose opinions that you trust and are experienced in these matters.

It's good that you're putting a lot of thought into what you're doing. Research all you can, consult with experts, get the best gear you can afford... & keep practicing.

 

[protective measures]

I just read this entire thread and am very surprised at what is missing. I've had a MIND NUMBING amount of training on the use of deadly force and subsequent articulation so I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I strongly disagree with your actions and wouldn't have done what you did but it worked and you resolved the situation. Good job.

We have a saying, "C Y A". Can you articulate? You have to be able to explain and justify your actions based on the totality of the circumstances.

To use deadly for you need to be able to articulate opportunity, means, and intent. Here's what it was in your situation:

Opportunity: They were well within range to attack.
Means: Disparity of force, there were two of them
Intent: They actually told you they wanted to F you up. They were also displaying pre-assault indicators: clinched fists, raised voices, etc

I'm not saying you would have been justified to shoot them but that's how I would have articulated your circumstances.

Start thinking in those terms and it will help you a TON in recognizing when there's real danger and being able to explain your actions later. Also, think about everything involved. Did they appear to be in shape, well built? Were they wearing anything that would indicate they have formal training/experience? MMA fighting shirts, Glock shirt, gang colors etc. Were they advancing on you/attempting to flank/take a position of advantage? You get the drift...

Kudos for getting yourself safely out of the situation, even if I do disagree with your technique. I would highly encourage you to read up on pre-assault indicators and develop a solid understanding of opportunity, means, and intent as it relates to the use of force. It will build confidence and awareness that could save your life. Hesitation will get you killed.

At the end of the day, you made it home safe. That's all that really counts.

Good advice.

 

[Bear44]

OK guys. Obviously, I did not make it clear that this is NOT a preferred defensive tactic. This is meant for that desperate situation where you KNOW you are about to get shot because you are so far behind the curve. It's meant to be used as you are moving so radically that you have no chance of aimed fire on the first round. Movement in this situation is still the best initial defense and the round into the ground is meant as an additional disruptive element against your opponent. You can't just through a random shot at them because of the danger of the shot going wild and hitting a bystander. The ground is a big enough target to hit even in this situation.

Also, just as a side note to anyone reading this thread. some of the "original post" quotes are a bit confusing. For example, in post 164 the quote that looks like it came from me did not.

 

[07JKX]

its always good to keep a rusty jennings with the serial number scratched out and a baggie of crack on you for incidents just like this.

"No officer... he came up all cracked out and pointed a jennings at me! I think he was trying to rob me! I was fearful for my life!"


...hmm... then again, it was a jennings and therefore there was a good chance it would not shoot anyways.

 

[bearpugh]

all i know is based on 'my' experience. the 2 occasions in my life that had to pull my gun. there was NO time. it happens in a flash. NO time for any chuck norris stuff. not enough time to even rack a slide.(for those that don't carry chamber loaded.) so i'd hate to think my 1st shot was a frangible, when that 1st shot is the only shot thats gonna matter.

 

[yellowhammer]

The threat doesn`t have to be armed.You can use deadly force if you believe that you or someone else`s life is in danger,or if you are in fear of severe bodily harm.You may have to convince the DA,judge,or jury of this.This is to even the playing field;ie,an armed woman is able to level the field when her attacker is a 6 ft.male.My feelings also,"never let a threat get close enough to do harm."

 

[protective measures]

OK guys. Obviously, I did not make it clear that this is NOT a preferred defensive tactic. This is meant for that desperate situation where you KNOW you are about to get shot because you are so far behind the curve. It's meant to be used as you are moving so radically that you have no chance of aimed fire on the first round. Movement in this situation is still the best initial defense and the round into the ground is meant as an additional disruptive element against your opponent. You can't just through a random shot at them because of the danger of the shot going wild and hitting a bystander. The ground is a big enough target to hit even in this situation.

Also, just as a side note to anyone reading this thread. some of the "original post" quotes are a bit confusing. For example, in post 164 the quote that looks like it came from me did not.

Not sure how #164 did that... Maybe I wasn't clear either.
Ultimately it is your life & decision as to how to employ your firearm. I'm not saying by any means your way "is wrong" or "won't work".
I too have a few tactics of my own that I have been thinking about & working on for a LONG time that are a significant departure from what is considered to be the accepted PROVEN standard.
In my line of work, I have to teach proven methods due to liability reasons. If I screw up w/ even a small detail... I just might contribute to someone getting killed or gravely injured. Those of you interested in being Instructors...dwell on that for awhile
I had to think long & hard (no offense anyone, not that I would care too much) as well as pray about it at length.
There are constant yearly advancements in gear & tactics that take considerable study to stay abreast of. However, until they "pass the gauntlet" of review by a wide selection of trusted advisors with many decades of experience as well as some younger fresher opinions from guys just back from, "over there", who will do their level best to disprove them... including my own new "fresh idea" that I may have spent hundreds of hrs. working on.
But until then, I will not teach it to anyone

I like your posts "Bear" ( Did I really just say that?) and I do understand that this is your technique that you are working on and probably decided to use.
In my unasked for opinion, what I see is that you have given this a lot of thought & probably practiced it on the range as well.
If you're comfortable with it... by all means do it, it's your decision. I was & am just encouraging you to run it by other experienced, knowledgable people you may have contact with to look for "holes" in your idea... then, if you still think it's advisable, have at it until you can do it as fast as you safely can.

Either way, it sure is interesting & enjoyable to compare ideas on here

Another sidenote... even though it is a frangible round, bullets can do crazy things. If it is purposefully pointed "away" or "down" it could be directed toward someone you haven't seen who is blindly entering the area of the fight. Plus if an attacker closes distance with you, you might reflexively fire multiple shots that could skip off the pavement if they grab your wrist or arm. I have seen it happen unintentionally during F.O.F. drills up close... don't have to tell you what the D.A. would say about that.

Your call.