You will never see in my collection these firearms

[RdKill]

$1500? I guess you missed the part where you can get a Colt for under $900 and a BCM for around $1k. And since you brought up lemons, if these examples were just lemons, I suppose that statistically there would be some examples of these "better" brands malfunctioning here on the ODT, right? Strangely, I can't seem to find any. There are a handful of examples on the Web, but there are 20x as many examples of some bargain brand crapping out. You guys can spew all of the "just as good as" nonsense you want, but it still doesn't make it true.

Oh man...I missed this little nugget.

If 1000 people own bargain brand ARs and 2 people own high end ARs in a given group, of course there will be more complaints/problems reported with the bargain brand. On the other hand, if you can find a control group of 1000 high end boutique AR owners and 2 bargain brand owners...assuming they would let them in...do you still think the numbers would be the same? 20x more examples of bargain brands crapping out is excellent considering there are 100s of x more bargain brands out there.

 

[mtdawg169]

Oh man...I missed this little nugget.

If 1000 people own bargain brand ARs and 2 people own high end ARs in a given group, of course there will be more complaints/problems reported with the bargain brand. On the other hand, if you can find a control group of 1000 high end boutique AR owners and 2 bargain brand owners...assuming they would let them in...do you still think the numbers would be the same? 20x more examples of bargain brands crapping out is excellent considering there are 100s of x more bargain brands out there.

You apparently miss alot of little "nuggets"... Of truth. I'm not drawing solely on the issues seen regularly here on the ODT. I only used those as examples because they were recent and convenient. The sheer number of threads here every month requesting help with a gun that doesn't run should be a clue. However, the proclivity of the membership here towards bargain guns certainly produces ample examples of what can go wrong. On the other hand, looking more broadly across the net provides a clear picture. Cheap guns have more issues, period. More importantly, I've personally un****ed enough bargain guns to know the difference. And finally, I know that some of those companies have better QC because people that I trust have worked directly for some of the best manufacturers in the industry. It sounds as if you have enough experience to maintain your own guns. Good for you. On the other hand, the BS you continually spew here is going to eventually lead someone to a poor buying decision because they buy into the "parts are parts" fallacy. And for the record, a quality gun is not a "boutique" firearm. It's just a good gun. Some brands certainly might qualify as boutique, but BCM, DD, Colt, LMT and KAC don't fit in that category no matter what you believe. My goal here is not to be a brand snob as you might beleive. It is simply to try and provide good information because someone may need it. Personally I don't subscribe to the "it's on them" school of thought that you referred to earlier. So I'll say it one last time, all AR's are not created equal. As a buyer, it's worth your time to become educated on the differences between manufacturers as well as what is considered the standard across the industry and why (aka "milspec"). You may not need it, but you should at least understand why, as well as what you do and don't get from the dozens of different manufacturers in the industry.

 

[mtdawg169]

Yeah the BCM might kill paper better. I went to a tactical ar15 course in 2008 and most of the students had Colts. A friend of mine had just purchased a DPMS never fired it. When we attempted to get zeroed in at 50 yards, his rifle was wayyyyy off. 2 instructors who were armorers attempted to get it on target and after multiple magazines of ammo, adjustments to the sights, and 30 solid minutes, they determined that the issue was with the barrel. My friend had to borrow an instructors rifle to complete the course.
Now, did he simply get a dud? I don't know. Maybe. Some people have no issues with their DPMS rifles.
But it certainly steered me away from the brand.

Great point. The training environment is a good testbed.

 

[RdKill]

You apparently miss alot of little "nuggets"... Of truth. I'm not drawing solely on the issues seen regularly here on the ODT. I only used those as examples because they were recent and convenient. The sheer number of threads here every month requesting help with a gun that doesn't run should be a clue. However, the proclivity of the membership here towards bargain guns certainly produces ample examples of what can go wrong. On the other hand, looking more broadly across the net provides a clear picture. Cheap guns have more issues, period. More importantly, I've personally un****ed enough bargain guns to know the difference. And finally, I know that some of those companies have better QC because people that I trust have worked directly for some of the best manufacturers in the industry. It sounds as if you have enough experience to maintain your own guns. Good for you. On the other hand, the BS you continually spew here is going to eventually lead someone to a poor buying decision because they buy into the "parts are parts" fallacy. And for the record, a quality gun is not a "boutique" firearm. It's just a good gun. Some brands certainly might qualify as boutique, but BCM, DD, Colt, LMT and KAC don't fit in that category no matter what you believe. My goal here is not to be a brand snob as you might beleive. It is simply to try and provide good information because someone may need it. Personally I don't subscribe to the "it's on them" school of thought that you referred to earlier. So I'll say it one last time, all AR's are not created equal. As a buyer, it's worth your time to become educated on the differences between manufacturers as well as what is considered the standard across the industry and why (aka "milspec"). You may not need it, but you should at least understand why, as well as what you do and don't get from the dozens of different manufacturers in the industry.

Across the planet is no different. Cheaper (Budget) manufacturers make up the MAJORITY of AR sales...everywhere. So of course more incidents of problem guns will arise from that class. I used to sell Toyotas. Toyotas are inherently good reliable cars that seldom break down. Who beats them in service? Lexus. Same car...people pay more and take better care of them though. Even if you only consider cars that are well taken care of, there will still be a great many more Toyotas in the shop than Lexus because Toyota sells a great many more cars.

 

[mtdawg169]

Cars are cars, like AR's are AR's, right? Except this comparison is more like comparing a yugo to your Toyota.

 

[01coltcolt]

Yeah the BCM might kill paper better. I went to a tactical ar15 course in 2008 and most of the students had Colts. A friend of mine had just purchased a DPMS never fired it. When we attempted to get zeroed in at 50 yards, his rifle was wayyyyy off. 2 instructors who were armorers attempted to get it on target and after multiple magazines of ammo, adjustments to the sights, and 30 solid minutes, they determined that the issue was with the barrel. My friend had to borrow an instructors rifle to complete the course.
Now, did he simply get a dud? I don't know. Maybe. Some people have no issues with their DPMS rifles.
But it certainly steered me away from the brand.

I have also experienced this with a DMPS my buddy sold me saying it had issues. I swapped the barrel and gas block and it ran 100%. Never again! I've had lots of ARs you can keep the headaches called DPMS.............

 

[bobbylee]

I don't quite understand the op....

A oly= dpms = bushmaster = colt = Daniel defense = colt = lwrc = lmt .... so on and so forth??

 

[EugenFJR]

Rock River is one of the worst about cutting corners. They came up with a whole new barrel profile. They call it HBAR, but it is more like uncut barrel. RRA's I come in contact with regularly are almost always heavy as hell because the barrel isn't turned down at all under the handguards. Not only does this make the gun heavy as hell, but it makes adding aftermarket rails/handguards impossible. Some claim it is to increase accuracy of the gun, but the fact of the matter is they are cutting corners to keep costs down. There is a thread about this very thing started by Dougiefresh here on the ODT. His RRA pistol is heavy as hell because the barrel is not turned down behind the gas port.

When you figure RRAs sell for about the same price as a Colt, I have a hard time even imagining buying one. Back in 2003 I bought one, but that was back when you could get a brand new one for 650 bucks. Add to that the undercut ultra tight chambers that make shooting anything besides premium brass ammo an exercise in frustration, commercial buffer tubes, unstaked castle nuts, improperly stacked gas keys, and neutered bolt carriers, honestly I don't understand how they stay in business. I certainly wouldn't buy one.


As far as DPMS, Bushmaster, & Remington go, they are all the same junk Remington ARs with different roll marks. They are made to sell cheap at the local gun shop and Walmart.

Doublestar and even Delton are better than the above mentioned, and considerably cheaper too.


I try to stick with PSA, Colt, and BCM. I have a S&W as well as an old Bushmaster too.

I will say this... I have had a few RRA's w/ the .223 wylde chamber, and it would only chamber and fire brass ammo... There were very very nice guns if you used the right ammo. If not... they ran like poo-poo... or not at all. To make a long story short, there were 3 of us who were at Ft.McCoy from 2008-2013 w/ the same AR -15 from begining to end. I had the home built Doublestar M4, SSG LaForest had a S&W M4, Sgt Farro had a RRA M4. I know we all put at least 12k down the barrel of each of the guns w/ M855 ammo... All of the rifles saw the same abuse as my Rifle, and they all ran pretty much 100% all of the time. Most of the guys on here would wet where pants seeing the abuse we put on our rifles... I have scar's and dent's and dings, melted sling bits all over my rifle. Hell I love that damn gun. I guess the best thing is get a rifle, run the dog poop out of it, and find out what it can and cannot do... It dosent matter if you spend $1200 or $600 bucks get a rifle run the hell out of it, and see what it can and cant do.

 

[01coltcolt]

I don't quite understand the op....

A oly= dpms = bushmaster = colt = Daniel defense = colt = lwrc = lmt .... so on and so forth??

order of precedence? Crap = Quality so on and so forth...........................

 

[No2sc2]

Mr I have a full auto Mac....