Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

[cmshoot]

Too many reasons to not use FMJ handgun ammunition as carry ammunition.

 

[mtdawg169]

My initial response was to the idea that modern 9mm has just as much ability to end an attack as 45 ACP does. In fact, that was the only thing I disagreed with in your post. All of the other factors you mention in this post are completely legitimate... right up to "the gaps between calibers are 20 years in the past.". No, they're not. A 25% difference in performance should not be overlooked.

Everything about user capability concerns is legitimate and an argument against inexperienced shooters using the 45 ACP because of that has merit, but the facts do not support the idea that the 9mm is just as effective as the 45 for SD. This should be a legitimate consideration for anyone selecting a SD round.

There is a phenomenon that often occurs during military training during which the instructors greatly exaggerate the capabilities of the weapons they are instructing. This is meant to increase the confidence of the troops using the weapon. I believe we are very likely seeing the same thing occurring with the selection of the FBI sidearm. The truth is that most LEO are not very proficient with their weapons and do not participate in enough meaningful training with them. Thus the 9mm is easier for them to handle, so it's important they are confidant in the 9mm's performance. Thus, there are selective considerations in the FBI research to get the desired results. This is why energy transfer in not even considered in the most recent studies.

Simple truth. The 45 ACP has more capability as a SD round that the 9mm does. However, it takes a higher skill level to use it effectively in combat.

In a vacuum, with the only factor being caliber, I might go along with that first part. And I completely agree with the second.

But in reality, if I can get 1 or 2 more rounds on target with 9mm than I could a 45 (time constrained), which one has done more damage? I honestly can't answer that. Strictly from a Physics standpoint, you can't argue with the numbers, even though they are very close in some cases. But all of the compiled data from police shootings across the country for the last couple of decades has yet to reveal a superior caliber. So, see the earlier comments about shooting what works for you. More importantly, train, train, train and select the right tools for you. Just my $0.02.

 

[mtdawg169]

Too many reasons to not use FMJ handgun ammunition as carry ammunition.

What's your perspective on Fed agencies switching back to 9mm? I'd love to hear what you think about it and the reasons behind it.

 

[cmshoot]

What's your perspective on Fed agencies switching back to 9mm? I'd love to hear what you think about it and the reasons behind it.

Like has been expounded upon ad nauseum, big improvements in ammunition design have greatly improved the terminal ballistics of all calibers, 9mm included. Contrary to what many armchair internet tacticians like to wail about, 9mm is an excellent round, as handguns go.

I would hazard to say that the biggest reasons for going to 9mm is cost and ease of logistics. For instance, all agencies within DHS have been ordered to switch to 9mm. Currently, DHS agencies are issuing 9mm's, .40's, and .357SIG'S, at a minimum. Possibly .45ACP as well, but I'm not sure. Logistical nightmare. Streamlining everyone to 9mm will ultimately make that easier, although there will be initial aches and pains as agencies acquire new handguns, holsters, and train their folks up.

Out of all those calibers, with all things being equal, 9mm is the cheapest.

In my agency, like in most sizable LE agencies, you have a wide variety of folks. You have agents with previous military and/or LE experience who are outstanding operators and "gun guys". You've got folks that never fired a gun before they were hired and only shoot when they have to. You've got everything in between. Yes, there are guys like me running around that would love to carry a 1911 in .45, but I'll be the first one to say that is one of the last guns that I would issue service-wide.

Our current P229 in .357SIG is an outstanding gun, but it ain't the easiest gun to run either. Not all folks can get the hang of running a DA/SA handgun and the .357SIG is stout and loud. For me personally, I could carry the P229 until retirement and be perfectly happy with it. Buuuuuu.........the agency as a whole would be better served with a handgun like the G19. We operate with backup hours away, so the added capacity is a plus. The G19, with its lower recoil and consistent trigger pull, will help below average shooters shoot more accurately.

The really good shooters will shoot the same score no matter what handgun you issue us. The below average shooters will have an increase in scores across the board. The fact that you HIT is much more important than WHAT you hit them with.

 

[mtdawg169]

Like has been expounded upon ad nauseum, big improvements in ammunition design have greatly improved the terminal ballistics of all calibers, 9mm included. Contrary to what many armchair internet tacticians like to wail about, 9mm is an excellent round, as handguns go.

I would hazard to say that the biggest reasons for going to 9mm is cost and ease of logistics. For instance, all agencies within DHS have been ordered to switch to 9mm. Currently, DHS agencies are issuing 9mm's, .40's, and .357SIG'S, at a minimum. Possibly .45ACP as well, but I'm not sure. Logistical nightmare. Streamlining everyone to 9mm will ultimately make that easier, although there will be initial aches and pains as agencies acquire new handguns, holsters, and train their folks up.

Out of all those calibers, with all things being equal, 9mm is the cheapest.

In my agency, like in most sizable LE agencies, you have a wide variety of folks. You have agents with previous military and/or LE experience who are outstanding operators and "gun guys". You've got folks that never fired a gun before they were hired and only shoot when they have to. You've got everything in between. Yes, there are guys like me running around that would love to carry a 1911 in .45, but I'll be the first one to say that is one of the last guns that I would issue service-wide.

Our current P229 in .357SIG is an outstanding gun, but it ain't the easiest gun to run either. Not all folks can get the hang of running a DA/SA handgun and the .357SIG is stout and loud. For me personally, I could carry the P229 until retirement and be perfectly happy with it. Buuuuuu.........the agency as a whole would be better served with a handgun like the G19. We operate with backup hours away, so the added capacity is a plus. The G19, with its lower recoil and consistent trigger pull, will help below average shooters shoot more accurately.

The really good shooters will shoot the same score no matter what handgun you issue us. The below average shooters will have an increase in scores across the board. The fact that you HIT is much more important than WHAT you hit them with.

Awesome. Thanks for that! Our County PD just switched to 9 from 40 (Glocks). Mainly due to the cost factor and secondarily for the ease of shooting / training / qualifications that you mentioned.

 

[grabbin' asphalt]

Too add to the cost point of agencies, from what I hear a lot of them Cannot Qualify with .40 Lololololololol
Therefore helping the terrible shooters by going to the 9mm.

 

[MMatt30]

Does anyone have an opinion on which ammo would perform best in FMJ? Yes, I know it isn't ideal, but I am curious...I think it would be intriguing to see test results on the subject.

.45 ACP would be the best if you HAD to use ball.

 

[MRH]

.45 ACP would be the best if you HAD to use ball.

That's what my logic tells me.. Not that I am very logical. I only ask out of curiosity. There are places in the world where people may have no choice but to use whatever is available...And it is better than nothing.

 

[biker_bill]

Wow, bookmarked that, excellent resource - thanks!

 

[BobcatMan]

balls rounds = collateral damage. 147gr bonded winchester rangers penetrate a LOT but I've never had a fail with them plinking away my 500rnds. I tried to catch one in a tote full of water and it went clear thru and out the other side. I now carry 124gr hst because i couldn't find 147's in the 1000pack but i couldn't catch that in a tote of water either. I keep 1 solid copper bullet in the chamber, maybe a few in the mag on top followed by HST or Ranger ra9b's just incase it gets ugly. I dont have the $ to test the copper ammo for reliability, tho it seems to be good. Ball rounds is a definite no-go unless I'm in the woods or something and plan on plinking anyway. below is solid copper 45acp and 9mm sitting on g19 grip ( for size reference ), these were caught in a tote of water.