ATF guidelines to buying and trading Firearms

[gh1950]

From another state. I can not sell to a guy from Florida. I can not go to Florida and buy a gun from an individual. I can have it shipped to a dealer in my state and go fill out 4473 to pick it up or ship it to a dealer in another state for the individual to pick up. Nothing has changed

they can, but only if you purchase from a dealer. if you aren't a resident of this state, its not legal to buy a firearm from a non FFL resident.

I've never done that, but still had no idea it would be illegal. I guess ya learn something new all the time.

There is a difference between the out of state purchase of a handgun and a long gun which the BATF flyer does not make clear.

First, ANY gun transaction between residents of different states has to go through an FFL. The difference is that a handgun transaction MUST go through an FFL in the state of residence of the purchaser. A long gun transaction can be done through an FFL in either state, meaning that if you go to a gun show in FL. and a purchase a long gun from a private individual, an FFL at the show can handle the paperwork (that's just an example, you can go to any FFL in the state).

The primary "gotcha" is that in a transfer to a resident of another state, the FFL is responsible for complying with the laws of both states. That's why you may run into a situation where an FFL CHOOSES to not do business with residents of states with laws with which he is not familiar.

Footnote: "Used to be" the FFL could only sell to residents of states bordering his. As this forum demonstrates, being 15 or 20 years behind the law is not unusual.

The BATF notice leaves one distinction of shipping a firearm unsaid. Note that it refers to declaring a firearm to a commercial shipper. The post office is not a "commercial shipper." You can mail a long gun (but not a handgun) and you DO NOT HAVE TO DECLARE IT. In fact, it violates USPS regulations to put any mark on the package which identifies the contents as a firearm. I know that it's all the thing to do to slam the post office, but I've mailed dozens of long guns with no issues.

On the other hand, not declaring a firearm to a commercial shipper is a violation of its tariffs (a crime). The common internet advice to declare the package as "machine parts" is total crap -- you will not recover if there is an insurance claim, and if you make a claim for the gun, you will get a letter from the carrier mentioning "insurance fraud." Think hard about how important saving that $10-20 in shipping really is in the big scheme of things.

As Gordylew notes this has been the law for years. Everything in the BATF flyer has been the law for years. Basically the Pres. was flapping his jaws. because as far as the statutory law and enforcement, nothing is going to change.

 

[atljetmech]

I think the "David" example given in the link is most of us here on the ODT.....
Speaking for myself though, it is rarely for any profit. I'm lucky if I break even but typically lose on a resale!
By those regards, I guess I'd make a terrible business owner too. Lol

 

[StuP]

I think the "David" example given in the link is most of us here on the ODT.....
Speaking for myself though, it is rarely for any profit. I'm lucky if I break even but typically lose on a resale!
By those regards, I guess I'd make a terrible business owner too. Lol

Interesting point, as many businesses, (trading to make a profit), go bust, I wonder if selling at a loss would be any use in trying to prove one wasn't a dealer ?

 

[MILSURP Collector]

Interesting point, as many businesses, (trading to make a profit), go bust, I wonder if selling at a loss would be any use in trying to prove one wasn't a dealer ?

Probably not, you may just be a bad dealer LOL

 

[Gordylew]

Since I have missed the boat on making bank on a number of times in my gun enthusiast "collecting for fun and not profit" career. IE When I could buy Keng Firearms import Ploytech AKs for a little over $200, When I sold an Ultimate Stainless Colt Python for $1700, thinking I struck it rich, or when I sold a Custer era Springfield 1873 carbine with the original cleaning kit in the buttstock to make a car payment. I believe ATF would have a hard time proving I made a profit. Thus I'm just a hobbyist trying to enhance my small meager collection. The few that didn't end up at the bottom of the lake in that horrible boating accident.

 

[gh1950]

Interesting point, as many businesses, (trading to make a profit), go bust, I wonder if selling at a loss would be any use in trying to prove one wasn't a dealer ?

Again, this is the same standard that BATF has always used.

The issue that BATF always and always will run into is what is how do you determine that an individual motive is profit -- not that he made a profit.

Let's say that I sell 10 Hi Points for $100 each more than I paid for them, but my goal is to generate funds to purchase Billy the Kid's revolver. As a "business" I'm not operating at a profit.

The truth is that most "hobbyists" --stamp collectors, coin collectors, art collectors, dog breeders, horse breeders, -- attempt to make a "profit" on any individual item or small group of items so they can reinvest in the hobby.

The test has and still is, are you operating a "business" not whether you actually make a profit.

We all would be sticking our heads in the sand to contend that there are not "unlicensed" gun dealers any where on the internet. Used car dealers are supposed to be licensed, but I'll bet every one on this board knows someone who always has 2 or 3 cars sitting in the front yard for sale. I still expect BATF to have a few show trials, it will be bad luck for those folks, but by and large it will be business (or no business) as usual.

 

[chucklenut]

too many rules and nuances.

im just going to do what the crack dealers do and buy a gun off the street, no 4473 for me