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Bill of sale?
- Thread starter sovietak474u
- Start date
I personally like bills of sale but do not always do them. I do however save messages from here in word as forms of verbal agreement in case some one at one time feels the need to change their minds post deal. My basic philosophy is that it could never hurt to fill one out but it can always help.
Let me first say that anyone can legally do their sale the way they want to. I know that.
Mdog, unless you are recording your serial numbers in Private messages, the ODT "cyber footprint" means nothing. Anyone can say they sold/bought a G17 (for example), but if you can't produce the serial number it won't matter. You WILL have to prove that it was that specific gun; otherwise, It's just another G17, and you're on the hook.
Now you're probably going to say: "But I do have the serial numbers, I always log them"
Ok, so you have effectively logged the buyer/seller through the ODT and logged the serial number through other means or the ODT. So you didn't actually write out or receive a bill of sale, but you recorded everything electronically by default. How is this different from a BOS? If you ask me, it's more dangerous to present the electronic "evidence" for your defense. No need to call unwanted attention to our little honey hole here at the ODT. Sometimes you have to think past just "being legal."
Paper is much eaiser to get rid of in the event of a "gun grab" and it's much faster to present if your butt does end up in a sling. The ONLY reason I keep a BOS is to protect myself from the above mentioned scenarios. In a gun grab situation the paper will be disposed of, if you knowhattamean, and the ODT never mentioned.
Bottom line: To not sell or buy a gun solely because a generic, paper bill of sale is involved, is just good ole fashion paranoia. The key word here is "generic".
Moot point indeed.
P.S. My bill of sale only logs the serial number of the gun and the buyer's name. No DL numbers, addresses or anything else. I'll look at your ID to make sure the name that was written down matches, but that's it. Any other information is unecessary.
I do like pie, never needed a BOS...
Unnecessary paperwork is a deal breaker for me. I have passed on several.
A GFL or DL can be forged easily. Especially a GFL.
Its all verbal guys. Are you legal age? Resident? Felon?
Yes, Yes, No. Good deal. You have satisfied the "reasonable effort" required by law.
Like the poster above says, do it by feel. If they don't appear old enough, nervous, sketchy.... walk away.
Otherwise don't make up un-necessary requirements.
A GFL or DL can be forged easily. Especially a GFL.
Its all verbal guys. Are you legal age? Resident? Felon?
Yes, Yes, No. Good deal. You have satisfied the "reasonable effort" required by law.
Like the poster above says, do it by feel. If they don't appear old enough, nervous, sketchy.... walk away.
Otherwise don't make up un-necessary requirements.
Serial #'s I keep them while I own a gun for theft purposes. Once I sell/trade a gun I no longer need them.
Cyber footprint- I'm not going to ANYONE and telling them I sold anything to anybody. If LE comes to me regarding a specific gun that is listed as mine and I have sold it I am simply going to say I sold it. I neither plan to try to evade questions if they are ever asked of me nor would I expect anyone else to lie on my behalf. Anyone who says they would never cooperate with an investigation is a fool or a liar. I make no effort to record everything electronically. Perhaps you don't realize that EVERYTHING here is already electronically recorded. Servers never forget. Whenever I post here I am acutely aware that not only am I speaking publicly, I am also, most likely, leaving a permanent record for any agency to inspect at thier liesure.
OK so yeah I AM a tad paranoid. Its an electronic world. You can be seen and heard ALMOST everywhere.
I'm required to take reasonable steps to only sell to individuals who can legally own. This I do by meeting them and asking for Georgia ID. Usually we exchange looks at each others GWL too. I think that's extra diligence.
If you are buying from me and want a BoS, no prob. I'll write you one, I didnt steal the gun so I'm fine with it. But I do NOT want to sign one for a purchase. At least not the DL, address, etc. Serial #, name and signature(as you say you do) is fine and nobody gets my SSN. I alos mentioned somewhere that I HAVE bought from pawn/gun shops, so I have done far more paperwork than a BoS. If the deal is too irresistable then I may cave any way. I just think it makes little sense for US to help track each other any more than we have to.
Hope this isnt too rambling.
(directed at Bold text above) I said "by default", so I am painfully aware. With that cleared up..... So if LE comes to you and asks about a gun in your name found at a crime scene, you're going to reply with "I sold it". And what are you going to do when they say "prove it." You have no serial number and the only tie to the sale is your electronic footprint on the ODT. I'll tell you what I would do, hand them a piece of paper with a date, name and serial number. Doesn't hurt anybody but the CRIMINAL who bought my gun. If the purchaser was not the alleged criminal and had reported the gun stolen, then the LE would probably not even be at your door. You know why? Because the purchaser has the exact same piece of paper as me. And now the paper trail people will chime in with the unlicensed dealer thing. We all know, as you said with fervour, "Perhaps you don't realize that EVERYTHING here is already electronically recorded".
And again, if the gun grab was about to happen, well, let's just say that paper burns well.
We could go on and on and on about this, because we both agree that the point is moot.
And, no, you're not rambling.
I just decided the other day that I won't participate in transactions with a BoS anymore. I'm still happy to show DL and permit though.
My concern is less about gun grabbing and more about keeping my information to myself. No one as any reason to know my home address, and they definitely don't need to know my drivers license number.
If they're worried about being able to track me back down if something comes up with the gun, I'm pretty sure it takes no effort for the police to look up someone by cellphone number
My concern is less about gun grabbing and more about keeping my information to myself. No one as any reason to know my home address, and they definitely don't need to know my drivers license number.
If they're worried about being able to track me back down if something comes up with the gun, I'm pretty sure it takes no effort for the police to look up someone by cellphone number
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I wouldn't sign something like that either, and I would never ask someone for it. EDIT to add, I will also buy and sell a gun without a BOS. If you don't want a BOS, then like everything else, just ask for that as part of the deal. I don't understand guys who just flat out refuse to even ask. If you want a chance at the gun, just ASK. They will say yes or no, just like your trade or cash offer.
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PIE!! FOREVER PIE!
If you want a bill of sale that is your choice for your record keeping. I wouldnot provide any more information to ou than my name and signature. print/sign I am easy enough to find with that.
If you want a bill of sale that is your choice for your record keeping. I wouldnot provide any more information to ou than my name and signature. print/sign I am easy enough to find with that.
