What Would You Do?

[blake]

My answer to the OP:

Too many variables for me to jump in and use deadly force. If I were to see someone pull a gun on the store clerk and I pull mine from under my sweatshirt, how does that look to Johnny Thirdparty with his concealed Glock standing behind me? Does it look like I part of the crime? In Johnny's head it may look like I'm about to start executing bystanders so he fires on me to be a good citizen - Game Over for me.

No way man, too much on the line for me to play Cop. I could come up with crazy scenarios all day but I'm sure you all see what I'm getting at.

 

[Espartis]

I dont think you are trying pick issues here, I am trying to pick your brain, I value what you have to say. Thanks for your input, I wanna hear from people that have been there, done that, and got a T shirt

most people who have been in a shooting wont want to share because it takes months to be "clear" of one... and even after all civil cases are aquitted it's still a sensative subject..

I havent shot a person but did have to take a neighbor dog out when it almost killed mine while I was walking in my neighborhood with my dog on a leash...took me 10 months of trial bull$%#$%#$%#$%# in civil court to recoup my losses (dog medical expenses)...but I was immediately legally cleared after initial incident and 2 week investigation.....and that's over a DOG! imagine what happens when you shoot a person

 

[jnv500]

Most people won't like the first answer but jails are full of people who thought they were doing right and turns out as soon as they touched off they went from being an armed citizen to a cold blooded murder.

Yup Yup

 

[07JKX]

07JKX,

I am not an LEO but I have carried a weapon often, as part of my military duties, especially over the last 10 years. I also spent a lot of my last 6 years running troops through their pre-deployment training - including my own oldest child - so I take this stuff seriously. I really think that if you are going to carry and want to be prepared to use a weapon if/when necessary then you must run through/wargame, whatever you want to call it, situations like these over and over. Saying, I'll make the best decision at the time - without preparing a lot - is probably a recipe for disaster or paralysis.

There is a reason we "chair-flew" (practiced in our heads over and over) every mission before we executed it - under stress at the time of action you don't perform better you perform, at best, as well as you did during your best practice session and usually a lot less well. So think it through then think it through again. Talk with others (like here) and listen to the professionals then build your own feel for what you are willing and able to do and then finally, picture it all under the worst possible conditions - now decide what and how you will act. What you do under fire is adjust your training as needed to match reality not start discovery learning time.

Good luck - I love these discussions because they do add to what little bits of knowledge or experience I have.

thank you for the post. I am relatively new to carry and still learning a lot. Ultimately I was saying that in any situation like this, you cant pretend that everything will play out in a perfect scenario ie:

"you are number three in line, guy walks in, pulls gun, shoots in the air, you unholster your weapon, shoot bad guy, he dies, everyone saved, hero in the media, license to kill issued by obama, honorary induction into MI6"

thus me saying I have no idea what I would do... there are just way to many factors that would go into it. Where are you? How many bad guys? how many other people? are there bad guys blending into good guys? he has a gun? knife? rpg? etc. etc. etc.

i do agree training, repetition and general preparedness are critical. Ultimately what prevails though is instinct and willpower. People can train their entire lives for a "situation" and when it happens are reduced to blubbering blobs of goo unable to muster the strength to take the next breath.

That being said... i "think" i would make the right decision based upon the circumstances of the situation.

and lets remember... a lot of these robbery cases I see almost daily.. occur in less than a minute. I cant tell you how many store cameras I watch with a nutty dude with a gun run in, demand money, and leave before the rest of the folks in there even know whats going on. The first thing you see is everyone start staring at the guy... then they look at each other... then thing start to click like "oh yeah... that guys robbing this place." By then perps gone a lot of times.

in such a short time... instinct is where its at

 

[Badger]

Great points. I have never been in a Jury or being judged by a jury. I know that a defense attorney can twist things around, that's their job. What do you think a Jury would say in a case similar to the OP's scenario, being someone like me that enjoys shooting guns and carries open/concealed for protection?

That's the whole point Bass, no one can tell you what the jury will do, any DA or Def Attorney or "professional" police officer worth his salt will tell you that.
The jury is made up of your peers, people from all walks of life..conservatives and liberals, each with their own opinion and interpretation of the facts..unfortunately once in a while one or two with about as much common sense as a field mouse tryin to steal the cat's food. When you find yourself in that situation, you're in Vegas rolling the dice, no one knows till its over.
All I try to do is make you realize that just because you see the law one way,, the twelve that make the differnce have their own theories, I know not supposed to in theory, but that the reality of it.
So get copies of the law read it MAKE SURE you understand it, get your questioned cleared up by "real" professional but in the end you are going to be judged , laborers, doctors, nurses, mailmen, sales clerks, car wash operators, gunstore employees, farmers, newspaper carriers, mechanics you name it so these issues aren't as cut and dry simple as they sound in the books.
Some cops, some attorneys, some judges "SOME" of everone involved ine judical process should be doing other things but they aren't.
A long time attorney friend of mine ,who is in my humble opinion, on of the better ones I have ever met once quoted the famous attorney Clarence Darrow to me "If you are looking for justice, don't spend ALL your time in the courthouse"..may be off 1 or 2 words but thats the gest of it..
O. J. Simpson ring a bell.

 

[Bass Akwards]

most people who have been in a shooting wont want to share because it takes months to be "clear" of one... and even after all civil cases are aquitted it's still a sensative subject..

I havent shot a person but did have to take a neighbor dog out when it almost killed mine while I was walking in my neighborhood with my dog on a leash...took me 10 months of trial bull$%#$%#$%#$%# in civil court to recoup my losses (dog medical expenses)...but I was immediately legally cleared after initial incident and 2 week investigation.....and that's over a DOG! imagine what happens when you shoot a person

No I didnt mean as far as being involed in a shooting, thats private info I don't need to know about. I like hearing about cases from a LEO's or lawyers expeirence, what got it started and how it ended.

 

[Espartis]

No I didnt mean as far as being involed in a shooting, thats private info I don't need to know about. I like hearing about cases from a LEO's or lawyers expeirence, what got it started and how it ended.

http://georgiapacking.org/forum/ <<<plenty of people with loud mouths and holier than thou opinions ....but also a few individuals speaking from knowledge.

 

[Bass Akwards]

That's the whole point Bass, no one can tell you what the jury will do, any DA or Def Attorney or "professional" police officer worth his salt will tell you that.
The jury is made up of your peers, people from all walks of life..conservatives and liberals, each with their own opinion and interpretation of the facts..unfortunately once in a while one or two with about as much common sense as a field mouse tryin to steal the cat's food. When you find yourself in that situation, you're in Vegas rolling the dice, no one knows till its over.
All I try to do is make you realize that just because you see the law one way,, the twelve that make the differnce have their own theories, I know not supposed to in theory, but that the reality of it.
So get copies of the law read it MAKE SURE you understand it, get your questioned cleared up by "real" professional nut in the end you are going to be judged , laborers, doctors, nurses, mailmen, slaes clerks, car wash operators, gunstore employees, farmers, newspaper carriers, mechanics you name it so these isuues aren't as cut and dry simple as they sound in the books.
Some cops, some attorneys, some judges "SOME" of everone involved ine judical process should be doing other things but they aren't.
A long time attorney friend of mine ,who is in my humble opinion, on of the better ones I have ever mat once quoted the famous attorney Clarence Darrow to me "If you are looking for justice, don't spend ALL your time in the courthouse"..may be off 1 or 2 words but thats the gest of it..
O. J. Simpson ring a bell.

Ding ding ding.....I get it. Im pickin up what'er puting down

 

[Badger]

I dont think you are trying pick issues here, I am trying to pick your brain, I value what you have to say. Thanks for your input, I wanna hear from people that have been there, done that, and got a T shirt

This isn't directed right at you Bass but a general comment.
If I could, I'd give that tshirt to anyone that would take it...I didn't and don't want it, or the knot in your stomach that goes with it everytime you think of it, which is damn near everyday of your life, but what's done is done.
Things sound easy when you say it fast , like playing what we used to call a "woofing" game, but hopefully as you get older, things take on a different meaning and you take life more seriously and realize that what you do and what you say have "real" meanings to other people.
There was a poster up the line, don't rember who and I'm just too tired to go back and look and whomever you are, I'm not taking a shot at you but, I want people to think) that said training is great but when it comes right down to it, it's all about instinct.
Having been professionally trained and having professionally trained for longer than a lot of people on this site have lived..I must disagree.
People who train repeatedly under proper guidance condition their mind and their body to react to life threatening situations like they have been trained.
Tho ,true there is no ONE particular scenario that you can train for and no ONE particular solution to all situations you might encounter .
There is ONE known and repeatedly proven fact..well trained people survive more often, inflict less collateral damage and spontaneously react the way they've been trained...
If everyone thought just natural instinct alone will protect you, we'd all be walking around daily in pools of blood.
THE 'instinct" that you WANT to rely on is the one you've reinforced like concrete until it becomes an automatic reflexive reaction just like pulling your hand back from a hot iron.

 

[Badger]

you need to understand that some bad guys are repeat offenders and do not want any wittness, so they will kill anyone there, so i am goin to get out alive.

I think I'm probably aware of that...however how do you tell the difference at face value or are you saying , you'll just start shooting to get yourself out and to he77 with everyone else
As a state LEO for 30+ years, I never had that option, I always had to consider everyone's safety..even yours.